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Author Topic: Jimum renamed?  (Read 10215 times)
dan9125
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« on: April 13, 2006, 10:55:53 AM »

Planes approaching Buffalo runway32 are sometimes told to fly direct to JIMUM. Today they changed the name to DEPEW ( i think) why would they do this...i sort of liked the name JIMUM!

 Dan (kbuf feed)
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2006, 12:22:30 PM »

Quote from: dan9125
Planes approaching Buffalo runway32 are sometimes told to fly direct to JIMUM. Today they changed the name to DEPEW ( i think) why would they do this...i sort of liked the name JIMUM!


Yep, you are correct.  As of April 13th, the new approach procedures for ILS rwy 32 went into effect and, as you noticed, JIMUM was renamed to DEPEW.

In looking at the old and new charts, I don't see any obvious reason for the change, such as a locator outer marker being decommissioned.  In fact, both JIMUM and DEPEW were/are DME fixes off the ILS, DME 5.9 to be exact.  Nothing appears to have changed there.

The new ILS/LOC rwy 32 procedure in BUF:
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00065ILD32.PDF

BTW, too bad the BUF feed was down yesterday when that line of t-storms moved through!  That would have been some interesting radio.  Coincidentally, I was showing someone at my office here in Buffalo how crazy it can get when a line moves through, so I go to pull up the feed and it's down!  Sad   Sad
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
dan9125
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2006, 12:43:33 PM »

Thanks for the info on JIMUM/DEPEW. What are these called actually? I know they are navigational aids of some sort. (waypoints)Do you think they will rename YOLUCK soon?
   Sorry about the feed being down yesterday we lost power here for over 6 hours! Someone driving an 18 wheeler cut the corner to close right up the street and snapped off 2 power poles and ripped down a bunch of power lines. Power finally came back on late in the day but i couldnt restart the feed until this morning.

 Dan
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2006, 01:00:23 PM »

Quote from: dan9125
Thanks for the info on JIMUM/DEPEW. What are these called actually? I know they are navigational aids of some sort. (waypoints)


These would be called "fixes," or perhaps "approach fixes" (to separate them from "en route fixes"), given that they are along the approach.   Additionally, DEPEW is further classified as a final approach fix (FAF), which you can see by looking at the profile section of the approach plate and noting the cross (bold ed X that looks like a pirate map icon).  

Fixes can be defined as the distance displayed by DME (distance measuring equipment), the intersection of two or more VOR radials, the intersection of a localizer and VOR radial, etc.  Waypoints typically are defined by coordinates.

Quote from: dan9125
Do you think they will rename YOLUCK soon?


Without knowing why JIMUM was renamed to DEPEW, I have no idea if that will happen, too.

Quote from: dan9125
Sorry about the feed being down yesterday we lost power here for over 6 hours! Someone driving an 18 wheeler cut the corner to close right up the street and snapped off 2 power poles and ripped down a bunch of power lines. Power finally came back on late in the day but i couldnt restart the feed until this morning.


Are you saying that your scanner, PC/laptop, and cable/DSL modem are not all connect to a uninterruptible power source?  Sheeesh!  How did Dave let you in the front door???   Smiley Smiley  Smiley   (My feed isn't,  either)
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
ogogog
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2006, 07:18:26 PM »

you live in buffalo and you cant figure out why thay renamed it depew, guess you dont get ouy of the city much?

og/atcs
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2006, 09:18:34 PM »

Quote from: ogogog
you live in buffalo and you cant figure out why thay renamed it depew, guess you dont get ouy of the city much?


Your first post here and you chose to open that intelligence spigot to maximum flow, I see.
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
ogogog
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2006, 08:16:36 AM »

guess you never heard of humor

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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2006, 08:55:49 AM »

Quote from: ogogog
guess you never heard of humor


Don't quit your day job for a career as a comedian.  

Do you know why the intersection was renamed?   If you answer, "because there is a village called Depew near the fix," then you obviously don't know, either.
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
ogogog
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2006, 09:12:19 AM »

if you know than let us know
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dan9125
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2006, 09:13:30 AM »

The Air traffic controller gave out a phone number to a pilot requesting some sort of info last week. He said it was the number to the radar room at buffalo. I was tempted to call it and ask the guy why they did it but i didnt have the balls. Has anyone ever been up in the controll tower at Buffalo? Wonder how hard it is to get a tour.

  Dan
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ogogog
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2006, 09:37:15 AM »

cant help you out at buf, but i can give you a tour to chicago tracon,just give then a call,all they can say is NO

og/atcs
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davolijj
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2006, 09:40:34 AM »

Quote from: dan9125
The Air traffic controller gave out a phone number to a pilot requesting some sort of info last week. He said it was the number to the radar room at buffalo.


Uh oh....that's usually not a good thing.  Sounds like the pilot may have been involved in a deviation or violation of some sort.

Quote from: dan9125
Has anyone ever been up in the controll tower at Buffalo? Wonder how hard it is to get a tour.


They're very nice people in BUF.  I'm sure they'd be willing to give you a tour if you set something up in advance.  Call the tower and ask about it, you sould be able to find the number in the phone book.
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JD
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2006, 11:23:39 AM »

Quote from: davolijj
Uh oh....that's usually not a good thing.  Sounds like the pilot may have been involved in a deviation or violation of some sort.


While my experience generally concurs with your comments, the controllers at BUF will routinely provide their phone number over the frequency for pilots flying IFR into uncontrolled airports under BUF's control as a method to cancel IFR.  

For some reason the remote comm outlet at Dunkirk, NY, (southwest of BUF by 30 nm) has been down for awhile, so pilots needing to cancel IFR have the option of calling the controllers directly once on the ground.

Quote from: davolijj
They're very nice people in BUF.


Yes, in the 50+ flights I have taken into BUF's airspace over the last year, I have always experienced excellent service.  

Next Monday when I fly into BUF I will ask the controllers why the intersection was renamed, then post their response here.  I would have done it last Thursday when I left but thunderstorms to the east of the airport had the frequency hot with deviation requests.
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
ogogog
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2006, 01:14:12 PM »

my guess, depew was named after to village of depew,and yes i do know how intersections are named and renamed.twice in my 20 years as a controller at chicago center we had intersection renamed for controllers that died before they could retire.im sure someone at buf thought depew which would add a little local flavor was a much better name than jimum which to a local means nothing.you see i was born in buffalo and grew up in the south towns so i like the name change.

og/atcs
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2006, 02:23:58 PM »

Quote from: ogogog
my guess, depew was named after to village of depew,and yes i do know how intersections are named and renamed.twice in my 20 years as a controller at chicago center we had intersection renamed for controllers that died before they could retire.im sure someone at buf thought depew which would add a little local flavor was a much better name than jimum which to a local means nothing.you see i was born in buffalo and grew up in the south towns so i like the name change.


Ah, I see.  That explains the first comment.  

So, how does a rename occur?  Do the local controllers and/or airport management petition the FAA to have an intersection renamed?
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
w0x0f
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2006, 03:36:17 PM »

The FAA is in the process of overlaying existing instrument approach procedures (ILS, VOR, NDB) with RNAV/GPS procedures.  The RNAV/GPS procedures have set minima for descent rates (about 317 feet per mile.)  The angle of the old approach may need to change and there are certain parameters for the placement of the final approach fix on RNAV/GPS approaches.  The folks in Oklahoma City who design the instrument approach procedures sometimes have to move the final approach fix to coincide with the new descent rates which did not previously exist for ILS approaches.  You need to bend your brain around this concept a bit, but the OKC designers have been doing it for the past few years.

So now when they move the fix, no matter how slightly they move it, the name must now change.  If the BUF controllers have a strong attachment to the old name, like for example the PIT controllers did for WIILE and STARG for Willie Stargell on ILS 10R http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0604/00570I10RC3.PDF when these changes occurred at PIT, then the old name can be held in reserve and used again after the 56 day charting cycle.  All charts and aircraft databases are updated at least every 56 days.

Simple, huh?

w0x0f
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ogogog
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« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2006, 03:46:15 PM »

iam not sure what the name of it is but their is a computer that is incharge  of keeping track of fix names and also issuing new ones.this is so fixes of similer letters and sound are not in the same or close to each other.example years ago probely late 80 early 90s their was an approach fix at grissom afb called PAPPY.the arrival fix for ord from the north east is PAPPI. wouldnt you know we had a usaf kc135 flying to GUS in our airspace and requested direct PAPPY,our controller cleared him PAPPI.i got the a/c a short time later and noticed his track was off for direct PAPPI and i questioned him about it . it took a few minutes to figure out what had happened,i belive a change was made a short time later to corect this.check out the PMM arrival for ord the holding fix was named PIVOT get it "cleared to pivot" more controller humor.i figure when the original ILS32 was terpsed no one requested any names and the computer just doled out what you saw in the orginal plate.you are corect you just request a change to the office in charge and if if meets their spec the change usally goes in on the next data change,but not sure how long it takes to go through the prosess.

og/atcs
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w0x0f
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2006, 08:37:45 AM »

og is correct about the computer spitting out the names.  There is a problem that the AVN office (TERPS people in OKC) have recognized for a few years and will become true very soon.  They are running out of pronouncable 5 letter names with the proliferation of RNAV procedures.  You can thumb through some of these current procedures and ask yourself, "How do I pronounce GNZNT?"  But this is a serious problem.  

They have looked at different naming conventions.  It will probably come from using a worldwide grid system with combinations of letters and numbers similar to an x,y axis but a little bit more complicated.  One of the earliest prototypes was designed by 2 controllers from Boston Center.  It was called SNARS.  I think that stood for Satellite Navigation Aviation Reference System.  Don't quote me on that one.
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dan9125
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« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2006, 02:27:21 PM »

Thanks for the great info guys, i learned alot about the renaming process. I'll let you know if i get a tour of Buffalo!

  Dan
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2006, 05:08:01 PM »

OK, Dan, last Monday evening while flying into Buffalo I asked the approach controller why the change occurred.  He stated that it was at the local controllers' requests that the FAA did so and that it made things easier for the controllers to have intersections named after the towns below them.

If you want to hear the audio of the exchange, download the Mon, April 17th BUF archive (18:00-18:30) and advance it to around the 19 minute mark (I didn't think this was important enough to create an audio upload here).  

My apologies to Ogogog.  Your initial posting style had me thinking you were not the experienced professional that your successive posts demonstrated.
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
dan9125
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2006, 09:43:22 PM »

Sounds Like we put to much thought into this after all. They simply renamed it because the controllers ask them to! That sort of suprises me but what do I know!

 Dan
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ogogog
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2006, 07:22:26 PM »

experienced professional,man iam still laughing at that one but thanks anyways.

og/atcs
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