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Author Topic: Runway Incursion, or not?  (Read 11295 times)

Offline tyketto

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Runway Incursion, or not?
« on: November 20, 2008, 03:57:43 PM »

Before my question, have a look at the Airport diagram for KLAS.

Currently, 25L/7R is closed for repaving until May 1, 2009. More on that is here.

Listening to the KLAS Approach/Departure feed right now (2042Z), and they are definitely using this modified version of Configuration #3. My question is this. With 1L full length being available for arrivals, would not each simultaneous arrival on 25R and 1L be a runway incursion, assuming that they touch down at the same time?

BL.



Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: Runway Incursion, or not?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 04:04:05 PM »
Based on the airport diagram, 1L has a displaced threshold beyond the departure end of 25R.  That may be the reason.

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Re: Runway Incursion, or not?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 04:20:40 PM »
According to the FAA:

A runway incursion is "Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take off of aircraft."

So my interpretation is, if the controllers aren't aware of it, or didn't approve it, it's an incorrect presence.

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Offline NWA ARJ

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Re: Runway Incursion, or not?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2008, 01:04:42 AM »
Technically it would be a runway incursion. I do not see any LAHSO for 25R. As far as a tower controller all you need is the arrival on 1L to be through the intersection by the time the arrival crosses the threshold of runway 25R. But as a radar controller you are the one responsible to make the sequence work. There are alot of variables trying to seqeunce IFR arrivals on intersecting runways that Would amke alot of work to explain.

Offline tyketto

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Re: Runway Incursion, or not?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2008, 01:52:39 AM »
Technically it would be a runway incursion. I do not see any LAHSO for 25R. As far as a tower controller all you need is the arrival on 1L to be through the intersection by the time the arrival crosses the threshold of runway 25R. But as a radar controller you are the one responsible to make the sequence work. There are alot of variables trying to seqeunce IFR arrivals on intersecting runways that Would amke alot of work to explain.

That's what I thought..

In the near 10 years I've been in Vegas, I've never seen KLAS use LAHSO. Even in Config #1, the 25R departure would have to be wheels up through the intersection before the 19L/R arrivals touched down otherwise there would be some explaining to do.

So, it would be safe to assume that if the 1L or 1R arrival touched down past the 25R-1L/R intersection = no runway incursion?

BL.

Offline NWA ARJ

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Re: Runway Incursion, or not?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2008, 10:38:53 AM »
So, it would be safe to assume that if the 1L or 1R arrival touched down past the 25R-1L/R intersection = no runway incursion?



[/quote]

As long as the 1L or 1R arrival is through the intersection before the 25R arrival crosses the threshold=no incursion.

Offline NWA ARJ

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Re: Runway Incursion, or not?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2008, 10:42:32 AM »
Configuration 3 (preferred configuration if winds permit)

Land on 1L and 25R – Depart on 1R and 1L

Arrival rates 54 to 60

Air Carrier and GA aircraft departing 1R will depart from intersection "B" (with 8250 ft. remaining).  Full length is available upon request.  Additionally, GA aircraft can also expect to depart runway 1L from taxiway Bravo (with 8650 ft. remaining).

Departure and arrival delays of 60 minutes expected during compacted periods

I also see here that with that Bravo intersection departure they can depart guys past the intersection of 25R, therfore not needing to worry about the arrivals on 25R.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 02:12:59 PM by NWA ARJ »

Offline tyketto

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Re: Runway Incursion, or not?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2008, 02:09:31 PM »

I also see here that with that Bravo intersection departure they can depart guys past the intersection of 25L, therfore not needing to worry about the arrivals on 25R.

Not sure that I follow you here. 25L/7R doesn't intersect 1L or 1R. If you're meaning 25R, I agree. However, full length is available on request, and that would mean some issues, as they'd have to cross 25R to get to it, plus make sure there's a hole in the 25R arrival stream so they can get the 1R full length departure off. I'm going to have a listen to it all day today, to see how they'll handle VIR43/VIR44, as they are the nonstops to EGKK. I'd listen also for PIA103, but since it stops at CYVR before going on to RPLL, it won't have much to fly before refueling at an airport with a longer available runway.

When departing 25R, VIR44 generally gets fully rotated by the time it passes 25R at Delta, and that's at least a good 9000 - 10000ft down the runway. So they could depart 1R easily at full length, but now having 1550ft less to use will make their departure interesting, let alone their routing to Gatwick.

BL.

Offline NWA ARJ

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Re: Runway Incursion, or not?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2008, 02:15:30 PM »
Yea 25R was what I meant. Some of those planes down there definitely need the full length especially when its hot and humid. I woudlnt be suprized if the Allegiant pilots would request full length as well. They use just about all of our 9000 foot runway even when its cold and windy!

Offline tyketto

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Re: Runway Incursion, or not?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2008, 02:41:18 PM »
Yea 25R was what I meant. Some of those planes down there definitely need the full length especially when its hot and humid. I woudlnt be suprized if the Allegiant pilots would request full length as well. They use just about all of our 9000 foot runway even when its cold and windy!

That's the good part about them doing this work now. It won't start to get hot there until mid-May, which is well after they'll be done with 25L/7R. Either way, the Mad Dogs are going to have some fun with it too. Too bad there isn't an area to planespot on the 1/19 side of the field..

BL.