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Author Topic: KJFK - B757 Heavy vs. Large  (Read 11205 times)
Flyingnut
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« on: July 01, 2009, 05:04:56 PM »

Today, KJFK Tower asked a Delta B757 if he was Heavy or Large.  I am quite familiar with the Heavy classification, but why would he ask if the B757 is Large?  I don't recall the exact time but the communication  exchange was between 1300-1400 CDT.

Thanks!
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Marty
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atcman23
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2009, 05:56:40 PM »

Well, why is the controller asking the pilot?!  The controller needs a copy of the 7110.65 right now!

However to answer your question, the B757 is considered a large aircraft but treated like a heavy, depending on where it's at in sequence.

By definition, the B757 is classified as a large aircraft since its max operating weight is under 255,000 pounds.

If the B757 is first in sequence (no aircraft in front of it), then the aircraft is treated like a "heavy" aircraft to the succeeding aircraft, regardless of type.  This is due to the wake vorticies the B757 produces, which are similar to that of a heavy aircraft.

If the B757 is a succeeding aircraft (behind another aircraft) and no other aircraft succeeds it, it is considered a large aircraft and nothing special applies.

B757s are treated like heavies in many situations for reasons of wake turbulence.  When it comes to holding for wake turbulence on takeoff,  a pilot must hold for 2 minutes when departing the same runway or a parallel runway that is separated by less than 2,500 feet, or if they are operating on a runway with a displaced landing threshold and a departure follows a heavy/B757 arrival or an arrival follows a heavy/B757 departure.  Pilots cannot deviate from the 2 minute rule, either. 

It gets more confusing from there and a 3 minute rule applies when an aircraft is making a low or missed approach utilizing opposite direction takeoffs on the same runway or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet.  A pilot can deviate from the 3 minute rule, but not if the preceding aircraft is a heavy jet or B757.

Other than that, I don't know why the controller was asking the Delta if he was a large or a heavy unless the controller wasn't sure of the 757 was a -200 or -300 series.  -300 series are a heavy aircraft as their max operating weight is over 255,000 pounds.  Delta did acquire some 757-300 series aircraft from the Northwest merger.

Sources:
delta.com website
FAAO 7110.65S CHG 1 3-9-6c
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Mark Spencer
w0x0f
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2009, 06:26:36 PM »

There have been some updates to the B757-200 separation standards.  The problem is the recent change to filing flight plans in ICAO format.  The FAA computers are not always indicating if the aircraft is a heavy or large.  Some facilities are requiring controllers to ask if the aircraft is a heavy.  Needless to say, this is increasing an already busy controller's workload.  Typical FAA reaction.  Don't fix the problem, just do a workaround.  Here is the order dated effective 6/24/2009.


http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.504.pdf

w0x0f

« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 01:09:01 AM by w0x0f » Logged
Flyingnut
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2009, 06:37:42 PM »

Very informative!  Thanks!
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Marty
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sykocus
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2009, 08:43:18 PM »

Other than that, I don't know why the controller was asking the Delta if he was a large or a heavy unless the controller wasn't sure of the 757 was a -200 or -300 series.  -300 series are a heavy aircraft as their max operating weight is over 255,000 pounds.  Delta did acquire some 757-300 series aircraft from the Northwest merger.

Sources:
delta.com website
FAAO 7110.65S CHG 1 3-9-6c

Some -200's are heavies. Some are not. In the past it was up to the operator to correctly file the weight class. Also the heavy -200s were limited to a few operators. I believe that most of that operators have gone out of business or merged with other airlines now. If that wasn't confusing enough, the FAA is now adapting to the ICAO format for flight planning (as w0x0f mentioned), but ICAO standards for weight classes are different from the FAA's. This adds a further dimension of confusion and uncertainty.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 08:48:20 PM by sykocus » Logged

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joeyb747
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2009, 09:40:28 PM »

It may have something to do with winglets. If the airplane in question had them or not. Winglets increase payload, making the aircraft heavier if fully loaded...possibly putting them into a different weight classification. Some of the NWA B757-251 fleet have winglets, some do not. As far as I know, none of the NWA B757-351s have winglets. Delta has equipped some of the Ex-TWA B757-2Q8 series they acquired from American with winglets...

Just a guess...  wink

Here are some nice B757 pics if you are a B757 fan:  cool

Here is an NWA B757-251 in Delta colors with winglets:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Delta-Air-Lines/Boeing-757-251/1528305/L/&sid=b46ef3710baa54030e04bbff65e1db89

Here is the same B757-251 (N555NW) in NWA colors with winglets:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Northwest-Airlines/Boeing-757-251/1488957/L/&sid=bea583932b1fefbc27cfd615273c0052

Here is an NWA B757-251 without winglets:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Northwest-Airlines/Boeing-757-251/1527726/L/&sid=b46ef3710baa54030e04bbff65e1db89

Here in an NWA B757-351 without winglets:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Northwest-Airlines/Boeing-757-351/1529053/L/&sid=b46ef3710baa54030e04bbff65e1db89

Here is B757-2Q8 N713TW with winglets...yes that's right...EX-TWA, EX-AAL, now with Delta and wearing winglets:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Delta-Air-Lines/Boeing-757-2Q8/1332712/L/&sid=d9fd40fe00001bedae9b7faa7341fad6

The B757 is a devilish airplane isn't it!  evil
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 09:43:25 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

Aircraft Mechanic
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2009, 11:09:11 PM »

Has nothing to do with the winglets. Some (mainly American) are actually Heavies, others arent. Has nothing to do with winglets or not.
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w0x0f
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2009, 01:35:06 AM »

Has nothing to do with the winglets. Some (mainly American) are actually Heavies, others arent. Has nothing to do with winglets or not.

Agreed.

This has everything to do with ICAO flight plan compliance.  joeyb747, read the document I referenced above, paragraph 6 in particular.  It explains it all.

The reason that you may hear controllers ask if a B752 is a heavy is either because he is required by local management, or he may be running a tight operation behind the B752 and needs that extra space if it is not a heavy.  Paragraph 1 of the referenced document says, "When the actual weight class of a B752 is unknown, separation criteria for B752 aircraft will depend on whether it is leading or following."  Some local management types have interpreted this to mean that controllers should query all B752 aircraft of their weight status.  Now it is no longer unknown.  Of course you have increased controller workload with this additional transmission. 

A prudent controller will treat them all as heavies.   

w0x0f   
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rpd
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 02:07:11 AM »

It's not a whole lot of workload to ask "Delta757 are you a heavy?".  I have been asking B752 aircraft so I don't have to treat them as a heavy.  Our local management has stated treat B752 as heavy unless you query the crew, or they state they are not heavy.

For atcman23, there are B752 heavies out there.  Some modifications have been made that put them over 255,000 pounds by something like 500 pounds.
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tyketto
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 02:51:44 AM »

It's not a whole lot of workload to ask "Delta757 are you a heavy?".  I have been asking B752 aircraft so I don't have to treat them as a heavy.  Our local management has stated treat B752 as heavy unless you query the crew, or they state they are not heavy.

For atcman23, there are B752 heavies out there.  Some modifications have been made that put them over 255,000 pounds by something like 500 pounds.


This is exactly the case, especially with the now defunt ATA Airlines' B752s. They specifically configured them to exceed the 255,000 pound MTOW limit, so all of their B752s were classified heavy. I don't know who purchased them after they folded, but whoever has them either kept them in that configuration (so they are heavy), or reconfigured them so they aren't. Winglets wouldn't have anything to do with it.

And obviously, B753s are heavy. When it comes to sequencing them, all B757s are treated like heavies, with the appropriate lateral separation applied to them.

BL.
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rekno13
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2009, 03:23:04 AM »

Everybody else has more researched responses... but just want to add my 1 cent.

I heard a pilot responding today when asked that they are on the old configuration "good ol' configuration" and was a large.

So configuration is my input.
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w0x0f
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2009, 04:05:44 AM »

It's not a whole lot of workload to ask "Delta757 are you a heavy?".  I have been asking B752 aircraft so I don't have to treat them as a heavy.  Our local management has stated treat B752 as heavy unless you query the crew, or they state they are not heavy.

For atcman23, there are B752 heavies out there.  Some modifications have been made that put them over 255,000 pounds by something like 500 pounds.


No, it's not a whole lot of workload, but it is additional workload nonetheless.  It is unnecessary and due only because of the differences in our standards as opposed to ICAO's.  Now we are bailing them out of another screw up.  You would think that as we attempt to standardize the system our workload would decrease.  Why can't the computers adapt to this.  Can't wait for NextGen to fix everything.

w0x0f
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atcman23
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2009, 08:55:10 AM »

There have been some updates to the B757-200 separation standards.  The problem is the recent change to filing flight plans in ICAO format.  The FAA computers are not always indicating if the aircraft is a heavy or large.  Some facilities are requiring controllers to ask if the aircraft is a heavy.  Needless to say, this is increasing an already busy controller's workload.  Typical FAA reaction.  Don't fix the problem, just do a workaround.  Here is the order dated effective 6/24/2009.


http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.504.pdf

w0x0f

This is a very interesting document!  It was just issued too, which is why I did not know of some of the changes, but it is good to know!  I always knew there were B752s out there what were heavies, but again, I was going off of the 7110.65, since that's what we have here in the US to use.  Most 752s here are classified as large, unless the operator of a particular aircraft states otherwise, then it has to be changed for that aircraft.

But I do like the document that w0x0f posted.  Paragraph 6 says, "Several operators have been refitting some of their B752 aircraft to increase their operating range.  These modifications increase the maximum gross takeoff weight to approximately 255,000 pounds making these aircraft "heavy" as defined by the FAA's weight classification system."

Except they classify a "heavy" aircraft as any aircraft with a MTOW over 255,000 pounds, not 255,000 pounds or greater.  But if it was me in the hot seat and an aircraft came along that weighed exactly 255,000 pounds MTOW, I would be treating them like a heavy.
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Mark Spencer
joeyb747
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2009, 05:02:51 PM »

Has nothing to do with the winglets. Some (mainly American) are actually Heavies, others arent. Has nothing to do with winglets or not.

Agreed.

This has everything to do with ICAO flight plan compliance.  joeyb747, read the document I referenced above, paragraph 6 in particular.  It explains it all.

The reason that you may hear controllers ask if a B752 is a heavy is either because he is required by local management, or he may be running a tight operation behind the B752 and needs that extra space if it is not a heavy.  Paragraph 1 of the referenced document says, "When the actual weight class of a B752 is unknown, separation criteria for B752 aircraft will depend on whether it is leading or following."  Some local management types have interpreted this to mean that controllers should query all B752 aircraft of their weight status.  Now it is no longer unknown.  Of course you have increased controller workload with this additional transmission. 

A prudent controller will treat them all as heavies.   

w0x0f   

Copy that. Thanks for clearing that up for me!  grin I know winglets improve fuel economy, increase payload, and increase range...I was not sure if that would qualify as a "modification" that would place its MTOW above that magical number,  255,000 pounds.

I do like the B757. They look great with or without the winglets. One of my favs...not as good as the B747...  wink
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 06:14:32 PM »

This was sort of mentioned earlier, not sure if it summed it up though.  Delta (ex-NWA) has B757-300s, which I believe are all classified as Heavy
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atcman23
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 07:49:30 PM »

Yep, the -300 is a Heavy as defined by the FAA; the MTOW on the -300 is over 255,000 pounds.  Delta acquired them from NWA.
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2009, 01:50:44 PM »

Message deleted as it was meant to be a PM.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 08:38:09 PM by camrnlendy1274 » Logged
tyketto
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2009, 04:10:27 PM »

Well, why is the controller asking the pilot?!  The controller needs a copy of the 7110.65 right now!

In an effort to help you succeed in your new career choice, I would suggest you reserve comments such as these until you are either a seasoned controller.  I would also suggest you do not publicly antagonize your soon to be brothers and sisters who will be training you in a public form

Love,

A real world 2152

May I also suggest that you take the same advice and not antagonize your soon to be brother, as he will be assisting you in working all of the air traffic that we have, especially considering the shortage of you out there from retiring, especially in a public forum. There are others who read this, especially those who are looking at a career in ATC. And an attitude like the one you've just shown may deter them from that, adding to the shortage problem you already have.

If he was incorrect, then how about positively correcting him, along with the rest of us, instead of jumping on him and the rest of us here saying that we don't have any idea of what we're talking about. If you can't do it nicely, please don't do it at all; we'll wait for someone who can.

BL.
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cessna157
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2009, 05:21:18 PM »

This has to be the most ignorant statement I have seen on here ever.  My friend, YOU are incorrect.  Maybe you should write this down in your CTI school notebook -- you are NOT a controller and have no idea what you are talking about. 

The controller is asking the pilot because the FAA seems to have screwed up again, and for some reason, ARTS is not displaying the correct designation for B757's now that they can be considered Heavy.  Sometimes they are regular B757's and sometimes they are classified as HEAVY.  As you keenly pointed out, this would change the separation requirements.  Not all pilots always state they are heavy, most of the time it is not remarked on the flight strip, and 50% of the time it is not reflected in the ARTS readout.  So controllers are "flying blind" sometimes when it comes to the B757.  I believe a fix is being worked on.

So for the controller to ask the pilot if he is "heavy" is not only a prudent decision, but a requirement to ensure that aircraft are safely spaced apart.   

As for you, just cause you read the 7110.65, graduated BVI, and paid diligent attention in CTI school, does not mean you have any inkling of what goes on in the real world of ATC.  Your comment above it a prime example of you having no idea what you are talking about.  In an effort to help you succeed in your new career choice, I would suggest you reserve comments such as these until you are a seasoned controller. 

Peace.


Who pooped in your corn flakes?  Your comments are totally out of line.  There is no reason to turn this into an un-civil discussion like 8 year old children.  Something tells me that you have no training or instruction background.

When a CFI is training a pilot-to-be, and the student makes a rough landing, the CFI doesn't throw him out the door and say go read your books and quit wasting my time.  He positively shows him how to correct his mistake.

I'm not even saying the original comment was incorrect.  I freely admit that I do not know the details of the subject at hand.
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camrnlendy1274
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2009, 08:43:50 PM »

My original post was meant to be a private message and I apologize for incorrectly posting it here.

I have removed it and will correctly send it. I hope that the 2 replies do the same.

For the record my intent was not to jump on the OP but to explain the truth of what really happened. I also felt the OP should understand that he should not just blame the controller automatically without understanding the entire situation. Controllers are constantly accused of wrongdoing these days and it is disappointing to see a fresh CTI going on this forum and knocking those he will be working with. I was simply defending my brother whom this thread was based on.
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atcman23
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2009, 07:55:22 AM »

Wow, I didn't mean to offend anyone nor would I ever poke fun at a controller.  If I came across that way, I sincerely apologize.  Someone else posted a document recently published by the FAA (recently = within the past 2 weeks) about the B757 and such related issues that I was not aware of.  I am glad that he pointed it out otherwise, yes, I would have been completely incorrect.

After reading the document that was posted earlier, I can see exactly why the controller was asking the B757 if he was a large or heavy, so I would agree that the question is valid and if I was seeing the same thing on the strip or the ARTS screen that the controller did, I may have asked the same question myself since I know that some B752s are indded heavies, while some aren't, and that Delta acquired -300s from NWA, which is a heavy.

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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2009, 06:09:07 PM »

The 757-200 can be modified for a MTOW of 255,000 lbs., which is (apparently, because this is new information to me as well) about 5,000lbs above what just about every B752 is configured at.  I believe, and I think someone already said this as well, that ATA had a number of B752s configured as heavy B752s.  The only commercial U.S. air carriers I've heard use heavy B752s are AAL and AWE.  Perhaps those two bought some of ATA's old stock?  I looked it up on the interwebs some time ago when I was listening to CLT, so if anyone is that curious I'm sure you can find it as easily as I did.  It appears to be more of a structural thing than anything else, but I'm not a "2152" so I don't have the whole story.
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2009, 03:16:47 PM »

If you listen to JFK ground earlier today about 1545-1600Z...youll hear an explenation.
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nycatcn90
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2009, 05:55:57 AM »

I'm a controller at JFK, the reason we have to ask is some companies(primarily american) have started retrofitting their 757s which classifies them as heavy jets, however the ARTS still doesn't recognize it and the FIDO will print out a strip that doesn't identify it as a heavy.  Obviously this is an important piece of information to know when you are trying to sequence them in with large aircraft or picking which planes are going to a parallel runway for staggered approaches.
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2009, 12:38:55 AM »

Love this site.... always learning something new.
Thanks to Dave and all who help to keep it going Smiley
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