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Author Topic: KLM691 lands in Niagara Falls  (Read 7974 times)
dan9125
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« on: September 10, 2007, 10:28:22 AM »

Anyone know why a KLM 747 landed at Niagara Falls Friday afternoon around 4pm. Flight aware shows it scheduled to land at Pearson (CYYZ) in Toronto from Schiphol. Local newspaper had a picture of it sitting at Niagara Falls airport saying it was diverted to the Falls but didnt say why. Weather in the area was clear that day.

  Thanks Dan
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MathFox
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2007, 04:16:10 PM »

KLM691 is in the CZYZ-Sep-07-2007-1930Z archive; there seemed to be limited runway availability in Toronto. Didn't get to the diversion yet.

edit: off course, the clearance to Niagra is at the start of the 2000Z archive
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 04:25:50 PM by MathFox » Logged
kkjlai
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2007, 09:33:52 AM »

KLM691 is in the CZYZ-Sep-07-2007-1930Z archive; there seemed to be limited runway availability in Toronto. Didn't get to the diversion yet.

edit: off course, the clearance to Niagra is at the start of the 2000Z archive

CYYZ Runway 23 was under ILS inspection the whole afternoon. 

However, can anyone tell me why KLM usually wants to divert to NY area airport, rather than CYHM (Hamilton, Ontario) which is maybe 5 minutes flight away, and which CYHM can support a 747?  Does KLM has a base/maintance unit at  Niagara Falls Intl ?  This happens last time when CYYZ is closed due to the Air France incident.
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MathFox
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2007, 05:00:38 PM »

I know KLM has a partnership with North West where NW is doing ground handling of KLM planes in the US. That would explain a general preference for diversions to US airports with a NW base.

I don't know why this plane went to Niagra Falls. I guess the plane was to short on fuel to remain on hold for a landing in Toronto. It had been circling over lake Ontario. Niagra Falls is a minute farther that Hamilton AFAICS, not that relevant for a plane that allready had a 7 hour trip behind it.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 05:19:35 PM »

Does KLM has a base/maintance unit at  Niagara Falls Intl ?  This happens last time when CYYZ is closed due to the Air France incident.

Just for clarification, the KLM urgent diversion back in 2005 due to the Air France accident at Toronto sent that B747 to Syracuse, NY, not Niagara Falls.  I believe the pilot was quoted over the frequency as stating that Syracuse had the longest runway of the closest airports to the east.  The reason they diverted to the east was most likely due to the line of t-storms that had been approaching Toronto from the west/southwest, which explained why Hamilton would not have been viable.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Greg01
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2007, 04:58:55 PM »

There isn't a NWA base at BUF, they have a presence there (we have a CHQ domicile at BUF). However, BUF's longest runway isn't even 9000feet. IAG, on the other hand, about a 45 minute drive north has about a 10000 ft runway...therefore a better choice for a 747.

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MathFox
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 07:12:45 AM »

There isn't a NWA base at BUF, they have a presence there (we have a CHQ domicile at BUF). However, BUF's longest runway isn't even 9000feet. IAG, on the other hand, about a 45 minute drive north has about a 10000 ft runway...therefore a better choice for a 747.

I assume that KLM 747 pilots have short field experience... TNCM (SXM) is one of the KLM destinations for transatlantic flights. 7000 ft should be enough for a 747. smiley
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dan9125
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2007, 01:01:15 PM »

Airforce 1 landed at Buffalo before the runway was made longer if I remember correctly.  Niagara Falls has a lot less traffic than Buffalo, that may have something to do with landing there as well.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2007, 09:00:10 PM »

Airforce 1 landed at Buffalo before the runway was made longer if I remember correctly.

Ah, but recall that Air Force One is any Air Force aircraft carrying the US president at that point, not just the B747 we all see in the pictures.  Was the Air Force One that landed at Buffalo the B747?

Either the current or previous US president (I cannot remember now who it was, but it was either the late 90s or in 2000) visited Saranac Lake airport in Saranac Lake, NY, up in the Adirondack Mountains.  KSLK is an uncontrolled airport (no tower) with very limited commercial service and a main runway of only 6,500 feet.  In that case the president arrived on a C-32 as Air Force One, which is the Air Force's modified B757 that has the ability to utilize runways down to 5,000 feet.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Greg01
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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2007, 09:31:11 PM »

It was the 747 and it was Bush that came to BUF. However, if I remember correctly, they were specially loaded so that the 74 could land and depart from BUF. Basically, they were extremely light. It did take up a lot of runway departing though!

I'm sure the 747s landing in St. Martaan are well under a certain weight to be able to land on 7000 feet of pavement. It's very possible that the KLM 747 that went to IAG was expecting to be able to land on a nice long runway at YYZ but was faced with that unpleasant surprise and was too heavy to land at BUF safely.



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MathFox
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2007, 09:34:54 AM »

Looking at the Boeing data http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/plan_manuals.html it looks like a 747-400 can operate from a 6000 ft runway (take off at max zero fuel weight plus fuel for a 1000 nm flight).
Landing on a 6000 ft dry runway is possible within weight/altitude limitations; 7000 ft allows for reasonable wet runway landings.

7000 ft of dry runway is enough for a landing of a 747-400 at its maximum landing weight of 630 klb. Boeing gives ~570 klb for a landing on a wet 700 ft runway. This is not too bad for a plane with a 542 klb maximum zero fuel weight... (You can load the plane to near 100% capacity and have 30.000 lb of spare fuel on landing.)
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Greg01
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2007, 03:30:22 PM »

Then again, the largest airplane BUF was intended to handle was a 757 (which we have come in daily thanks to UPS). It's possible that the pilot just felt more comfortable with IAG rather than BUF.

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dan9125
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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2007, 04:38:15 PM »

UPS and FEDEX both use heavy Airbus A-300 and A-310's now dont they?

   Greg/Peter...what is the "north practice area" i hear all the time. Been meaning to ask you that.

 Thanks Dan
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2007, 10:11:57 PM »

   Greg/Peter...what is the "north practice area" i hear all the time. Been meaning to ask you that.

A practice area is a known, local area of airspace "unofficially" set aside for student and more experienced pilots to practice air work, such as stalls, steep turns, turns around a point, chandelles, figure 8s, and others.   Typically these areas are located above less populated regions so as not to cause too much noise pollution for the residents below and are referenced by their location relative to the airport containing the flight school.   Presumably Buffalo's practice area is north of the airport at some point below Lake Ontario.

Greg would be more familiar with Buffalo's practice area so I will defer guessing where their north practice area is specifically located.  However, we have one in Syracuse as well that we call the northeast practice area, as it is located northeast of the SYR airport and just north of Oneida Lake (the large "thumb" of the NY Finger Lakes).   


EDIT:  Note that I state "unofficially" set aside, as there are no rules or regulations pertaining to a practice area.  As pilots we are still responsible for see and avoid of other aircraft, as well as any other regulations that pertain to normal flight.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 10:14:22 PM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Greg01
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2007, 09:30:43 AM »

Dan, UPS flies a 757 in and out of BUF. Fedex still uses the 727 for BUF routes.

Each airport individual airport has their own unofficial practice area, as Peter stated. For example, Akron's practice area starts at a point about 5nm north of the airport and is concentrated over what we call "the swamps" near the Iriquois Wildlife Reserve. It actually extends up to Middleport and Medina. However, remember, it's unofficial.

BUF's is in a similar area, but a little further north of Akron's. There's actually a little overlap to the point when we're talking to BUF, we'll get traffic reports of one of Prior's Warriors in the area.

The Buffalo Airfield, in West Seneca, has a practice area between Hamburg and Angola right along the lake shore. It's starts as you proceed SW of Bills Stadium. The stadium is kind of the informal checkpoint for the end of the Class C shelf (when you can start climbing above 2200 feet).

Hope this helps,
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