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Author Topic: Landing long?  (Read 3976 times)
Steelrman
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« on: February 17, 2009, 10:25:43 AM »

Couldn't find an answer with the LiveATC search, so I'd like to ask what "landing long" means. A pilot asked a tower if it was ok to "land long."  Not sure what that is and why a pilot would ask.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 10:34:10 AM »

Instead of landing at the threshold, which is normally within the first 500 to 1,000 feet of runway, the pilot wanted to land much farther down the runway.

This is a common tactic used by GA pilots (not sure how airline operation policy allows or restricts this) who are landing at airport with long runways, since often the goal of this is to make the taxi to the ramp as short as possible.

edit:  Also worth mentioning is that smaller, GA (general aviation) aircraft only need 500-1,500 feet of runway to land and stop, so landing at the threshold of an airport with a 10,000 foot runway might mean a 1.5 statute mile taxi back to the ramp.  Airplanes don't make good cars.  smiley
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 10:36:16 AM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Steelrman
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 01:16:05 PM »

Thanks for the info.   smiley
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cessna157
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 04:33:20 PM »

This is a common tactic used by GA pilots (not sure how airline operation policy allows or restricts this) who are landing at airport with long runways, since often the goal of this is to make the taxi to the ramp as short as possible.

Unfortunately, part 121 (and maybe 135?  not sure) operations are required to touch down in the Touchdown Zone (TDZ) per the FARs.  I have heard stories about FAA observers standing in control towers watching for those who land outside of the TDZ.  Those crews got a little unfriendly visit.


Also worth mentioning is that smaller, GA (general aviation) aircraft only need 500-1,500 feet of runway to land and stop

HA!  You've never seen me fly a 152.   grin
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 04:44:35 PM »

Unfortunately, part 121 (and maybe 135?  not sure) operations are required to touch down in the Touchdown Zone (TDZ) per the FARs.

Thanks for that.  I suspected that might be the case, but then again the part 121 intersection departure allowance was a surprise to me, so I didn't want to make any unqualified assumptions.


HA!  You've never seen me fly a 152.   grin

I know, I know.  With a fifteen knot wind blowing, you can do it in zero feet making those police copter pilots jealous!
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
pilot221
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 06:20:15 PM »

Another use from an ATC perspective.

If you have two Cessna 172's on final (they are Category 1) sometimes telling the first one to roll out long or land long will help you if you notice the second one will cross the threshold before the first one is 3000' down the runway trying to exit. Let them land long or roll out and the second one can now land with the first one still on the runway 3000' or more from the threshold.
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jmcmanna
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 06:31:05 PM »

It's also not technically required for the pilot to request a long landing, but we do appreciate it in the tower.  If no one is behind you and I know you're going to the FBO at the far end of the runway, in advance of your landing I might tell you to plan on exiting at the end and you can do whatever you feel is necessary to safely land the airplane from that point.
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pilot221
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 06:33:28 PM »

Ya true. I see a lot of people get worked up because some pilot is floating all the way down the runway. It's nice to know but when you are cleared to land, it's your runway.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 07:11:56 PM »

Ya true. I see a lot of people get worked up because some pilot is floating all the way down the runway. It's nice to know but when you are cleared to land, it's your runway.

I received a terse reminder about that one day when I was on approach and requested to land long to take advantage of a short taxi.  The tower trainee who answered my call told me he wanted me off the runway by a taxiway that was about 1/3 up the runway from the approach end.

When I replied that I would have preferred the short taxi off, the training controller took over and tersely said just that: "It's your runway when you are cleared to land and you can do what you want."   

Sometimes I fault myself for trying too hard to get the hell out of the controller's way.

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Hollis
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 07:28:55 PM »

Ever been to Oshkosh during the fly-ins?
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cessna157
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 09:42:04 PM »

Another use from an ATC perspective.

If you have two Cessna 172's on final (they are Category 1) sometimes telling the first one to roll out long or land long will help you if you notice the second one will cross the threshold before the first one is 3000' down the runway trying to exit. Let them land long or roll out and the second one can now land with the first one still on the runway 3000' or more from the threshold.


The unfortunate part is, a lot of GA pilots are unaware of this.  I spent a lot of time in the control tower where I went to college, and occasionally they'd have someone go around on their own will, just because there was a cessna 4000 feet down the runway that hadn't turned off.  Tower was always like "Ya know, you could have landed.  If I would have needed you to go around, I would have told you."  I've even seen the same thing at uncontrolled fields.  Some have it in their mind that the runway must be free and clear to land. 
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pilot221
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 10:14:32 PM »

Another use from an ATC perspective.

If you have two Cessna 172's on final (they are Category 1) sometimes telling the first one to roll out long or land long will help you if you notice the second one will cross the threshold before the first one is 3000' down the runway trying to exit. Let them land long or roll out and the second one can now land with the first one still on the runway 3000' or more from the threshold.


The unfortunate part is, a lot of GA pilots are unaware of this.  I spent a lot of time in the control tower where I went to college, and occasionally they'd have someone go around on their own will, just because there was a cessna 4000 feet down the runway that hadn't turned off.  Tower was always like "Ya know, you could have landed.  If I would have needed you to go around, I would have told you."  I've even seen the same thing at uncontrolled fields.  Some have it in their mind that the runway must be free and clear to land. 

It happens, telling them 'separation is good' will usually remind them it's ok.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 07:45:03 AM »

The unfortunate part is, a lot of GA pilots are unaware of this.

Speaking for the US, I believe that one of two reasons are most like the cause for this lack of knowledge.  With regards to the PP syllabus, there are many subtleties of aviation knowledge than cannot be taught within the limited timeframe of the PP instructional period.  This is where getting out and flying a lot will expose what was not taught initially.

Secondly, I believe that (for good or bad) many flight instructors are the fast-track types - in other words, those who are screaming through the ratings to become a right-seater for the airlines, stopping at CFI or CFII only long enough to accumulate the hours needed to move on.

Therefore the reality is that these CFI/CFIIs many also not be as experienced in these subtleties and therefore do not pass them on.  Of course, where one's flight school is based would make a difference, whether it be a busy class C or even class B airport (BWI comes to mind), or whether is it a small, single strip uncontrolled field 100s of miles from a class C or larger.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
evilcuban
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 12:01:14 PM »

Well this turned into quite an informative discussion.   I read the topic and didn't think there'd be much to it...  Thanks for all of the extra info everyone!
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Nos10
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 02:11:43 PM »

Quote
Ever been to Oshkosh during the fly-ins?
Or any other large gathering  being stacked up behind a Slower AC on Final
You will be a happy camper when he chooses to land long.
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