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Author Topic: New ATC voice  (Read 13166 times)
Jonathan_tcu
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« on: November 07, 2005, 08:03:23 PM »

Just out of curiosity, for ATC guys, what was your first day like on the air? I have a new guy from Toronto who's been manning the Timmns/Moose sectors, he sounds like he's a pro, but hesitating a little bit.
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Jason
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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2005, 08:40:11 PM »

Hi Jonathan,

Do you currently have the archived clip?  That might help people understand how this controller sounded.

Jason
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2005, 08:57:32 PM »

Quote from: HPNPilot1200
Hi Jonathan,

Do you currently have the archived clip?  That might help people understand how this controller sounded.

Jason


No, because there is no feed...  wink
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Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2005, 09:35:39 PM »

I do have it on audio cassette, and unfortunately I don't have a way to upload that online.  All I can say is just before the 45th minute of my cassette wrapped up, the guy confused himself during a holding clearance for the rwy21 approach at the BUDAR fix, assigned the pilot to turn right 10 degrees to intercept the localizer (background chit chat)........disregard that....turn left 10 degrees, *2 people start laughing* maintain seven thousand feet.... expect further clearance at... sixteen ten!.  

And then, when he's cleared for the approach to Timmins, he makes the mistake with..

You're cleared to the... um.. Moosonee Airport.... sorry, make that the Timmins airport for the approach, call flight service on twenty two-three.
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ZOTAN
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2005, 09:57:25 PM »

I have new controller at Brown Field (SDM) who has also made a few mistakes. Heres something I heard earlier today.

"Cessna 6CM, Brown Ground, Winds 270 at 8, Runway 26R, Cleared for Takeoff"
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Matt Stevens
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2005, 06:33:25 AM »

Hi Jonathan-

Get yourself into ATC school fast!  You can save the sector from its demise.

smiley smiley

Dave
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davolijj
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2005, 04:40:36 PM »

A lot of pilots forget that every facility out there has training in progress in some capacity everyday.  Even full performance level (FPL) controllers go through a rigid training process when they go to a new facility.

As for Moosonee/Timmons and SDM controllers, I doubt it's their first time "on the air."  Tower controllers usually start with Clearance Delivery then Ground control.  Radar controllers get extensive lab exposure and radar associate training before going solo.
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Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2005, 10:31:27 PM »

The first new guy improved a bit today.  He started sounding like the senior people when tracking aircraft in non-radar.  

However, ANOTHER  or 2nd new guy is on the air and so far so good.  

The general problem is they sometimes forget to assign pilot discretionary descents just prior to the approach and forget to clear the aircraft for the approach.

The funny part is they key the mic when talking to the FSS via hotline for a departure clearance.  

If I was starting, I'd sure love to work at Pearson's clearance delivery first.  

After listening to these new guys, I can actually recite the spoken verbage in mind and I feel like yelling at them.

I guess the regular full time guys are on a break. Since I know the airspace that I live in and GOT a job, I'd be nervous, but anxious at the same time.
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Old Dog Flying
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2005, 09:29:53 PM »

Jonathan:  From some of your comments about the "newbies" not knowing what they should be saying...Well I would have loved having an expert like you as a trainee!

Any time a new person moves into a sector, he/she must undergo extensive training; first in a classroom, then in a simulator and then into position on the boards, and I can assure you that the first hours in position can be very nerve wracking for anyone just starting out.  The training in position can vary greatly, up to a year or more depending on the complexity of the sector.

And the comment about the regular full time guys being on a coffee break...give me a break.  The new trainees are never left alone and there is an On-The-Job Instructor plugged in and monitoring every transmition made by the trainee...who by the way is allowed to make mistakes so that the instructor can debrief the poor guy afterwards...but the mistakes, if they effect safety are never allowed to go uncorrected.

So give the "new guy on the block" some slack.

Barney
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Barney
Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2005, 09:47:27 PM »

You're absolutely right.  When I hear them studdering a little bit, I kind of shake myself.  It's just like my first few days as a customer service rep last year.  

So far this week, the new guy has actually been doing ok.  So kudos to him.  A lot of time, depending on the guy and the mic being used, I'll hear a few voices in the background and hear the controller correcting his instructions.
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Old Dog Flying
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2005, 09:59:05 PM »

I retired about 21/2 years ago and I still have a protective paternal thing about trainees.  During my 49 years in the system I trained a lot of kids in both the VFR and IFR system and I know what I put them through. evil

Learn from the mistakes of others...you won't live long enough to make them all yourself. wink

Barney
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Barney
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2005, 06:00:19 AM »

Quote
And the comment about the regular full time guys being on a coffee break...give me a break. The new trainees are never left alone and there is an On-The-Job Instructor plugged in and monitoring every transmition made by the trainee...who by the way is allowed to make mistakes so that the instructor can debrief the poor guy afterwards...but the mistakes, if they effect safety are never allowed to go uncorrected.


The fact of the matter is that the trainee is operating "on the ticket" of the FPL. The trainer is responsible for any errors that take place while training someone at their position. It's the trainer's head that will roll if the trainee has a deal...
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Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2005, 03:15:46 PM »

I can also add to that, when I visited the local Flight Service Station here in 1995, I went there on a Saturday afternoon, when 2 new trainees were working.  The shift manager was plugged into the guy working the Earlton (CYXR) side, while I sat with the guy manning the local Timmins traffic and one other guy all alone working the Moosonee/Kap radio side.  I think there is a heck of a lot more training for ATC than there is when I started working customer care.  

Even comparing new voices on the air for the FSS here compared to the FSS at North Bay (CYBB) where the guys down there use much more consistency.  For example, the ATIS broadcasts, all of them start with "North Bay airport information Alpha, North Bay weather....".  Here in Timmins, not one guy uses the same opening "Timmins information Bravo, ten hundred zulu..." while one guy always used "Timmins airport ATIS information XX, Timmins weather".
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binky
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2005, 03:06:42 PM »

Guys can we relax a bit on the "I HAVE a new guy from Brown Field or Toronto". I think you mean to say "I heard"?  Don't get too freaky with this stuff.  Its fun to listen and hear the different pilot and ATC voices but it starts to get a bit weird when people begin to analyse, interpret the moods, knowledge and speech patterns of people.  Remember that you are listening to people at work.  These trainees (if they are in fact trainees.. see what I mean?) are presumably new and will make errors just as new pilots make errors in the air.  Yes controllers at times transmit on air instead of on the hotline but pilots also transmit on guard thinking they are on the radio frequency and you may at times hear cabin announcements on 121.3 inadvertantly.  To Johnathan_tcu and other hard-core fans if you havent planned yet, you definately have to try and get into ATC.  It seems like a real passion for you.  Just dont get all weird from listening in.
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jamall02864
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2005, 06:19:01 PM »

lol
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Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2005, 06:41:06 PM »

I do wish to, but when I attempted the NavCanada exam in Ottawa 2 years ago, I failed it.  I may have to upgrade my math and probably a few other visual skills too before I get in.  I am just hoping for FSS or Flight Service first, since I have a passion for following weather patterns and such.  ATC just helps me understand the communication and what the pilots are doing way up in the air.

Some of the new guys here at the FSS are really good or the opposite.  But, that's another story for another day.
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binky
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« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2005, 03:41:09 PM »

Try the test again, several of the people that I know who are controllers had to write the test at least once.  There are strategies to writing the test and the main one is do not guess. Leave an answer blank if you arent 100% sure..they want accuracy rather than speed on that test and you get -1 for a wrong answer not zero like most tests in school but they dont tell you that. But thats another topic all together.  You sound like you want ATC not FSS from the questions you ask here.
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Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2005, 08:37:38 PM »

Thanks!  Once I get my math skills up there again, I'l retry.  I read a Transport Canada letter I got in 1995, which told me the limit age is 30 and I'm 28.  I may be too late after age 30.  I've been re-reading some notes and noticing the formulas used.  I always try to picture myself reading some flight plan progress strips and trying to calculate times, etc, for non-radar environments and imagining occasional situations here in the Timmins airspace where 5 guys are holding on approach in IFR conditions.  It's just quick thinking, visual, audible, imagination and accuracy that I am trying to strive for.  There's much more, but this is good.  Tongue
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Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2005, 08:40:13 PM »

Those 2 new guys were on again.  They're probably still learning.  I won't point out the mistakes.  However, one of the new guys locked his mic once, to point out aircraft target distances and some voices in the background told him what to say and reminded him his mic was locked on.  I have to say that my heartburn kind of flares up when these guys get stumped on something.  huh
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binky
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2005, 01:11:26 PM »

There is no age limit to begin ATS training in Canada so don't worry.  Sometimes 'gags' are played on each other by one person (say data person) stepping on the foot pedal of the the radar controller who might not be watching at that moment so that their mike will become live without them realizing it..
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Old Dog Flying
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2005, 01:20:51 PM »

And there is no manditory retirement age either...I was just short of my 68th birthday when I fired Nav Can.

Binky...In more than 49 years in ATC, I don't ever recall anyone "playing a joke" on another controller while on the job...too much was at stake.  But there have been plenty of situations where a controller has inadvertantly opened a mike without opening his mouth..and ended up being very red-faced for the comments that were transmitted.

 embarassed Barney
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Barney
Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2005, 02:18:15 PM »

Old Dog, I see you're from B.C.  One of the CZYZ controllers for the Timmins/North Bay sectors works here and is on the air right now as I type this.  He sais he's from the Okanogan I think.

Anyways, the new voices on the air from CZYZ are improving and beginning to sound like pro's.  

AND, here at the local airport, another new voice, but he actually sounds just like the regulars.  So, there's some new blood on the air  cheesy
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Old Dog Flying
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2005, 02:52:27 PM »

Jonathan...I'm living on the coast...a block and a half from the beach to be exact.  I'm waiting for the fog to lift so that I can fly to Boundary Bay from base at Langley...Annual time on the Grumman.

 Lots of new controllers in pretty well all areas but I'm glad that I'm out of it.
Far too much negativity and poor morale everywhere and that's no fun.

Old Dog
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Barney
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