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| | |-+  New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
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Author Topic: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6  (Read 33498 times)
JetScan1
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« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2013, 02:39:40 PM »

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I'll try 21.02 and see what I get. Doesn't sound like I'm getting ground from 21.02. Ship Bottom must be just a little too far.

What about with the squelch right off ? I wonder if you get a weak sidetone from it ?
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JohnN
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KBLM, KWRI, KNEL, 3N6, N12, ZNY


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« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2013, 02:47:04 PM »

I've got the squelch as low as it will go right now. Aircraft are coming in fine, just no hint of the ground side. Okay, since I wasn't getting ground, I've locked out 21.02 and returned to the normal scan.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 02:50:08 PM by JohnN » Logged

Feed Provider:
KBLM, 3N6, N12
KWRI, KNEL, ZNY
JetScan1
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« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2013, 02:54:23 PM »

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I've got the squelch as low as it will go right now. Aircraft are coming in fine, just no hint of the ground side.

Yeah I didn't hear anything from the ground side either. Thanks for checking. Interesting that you can get the controllers from Barngate on 133.500 that's maybe a few miles farther from your location. Although I'm guessing they are using a more powerful transmitter to get out long range over the ocean ?
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JohnN
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« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2013, 04:15:02 PM »

Someone suggested I build a tower to FAA standards so I could pick up the ground side. I have plenty of time to build it, but I'm just not sure about the money side of things. I wonder how much something like that would cost?
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Feed Provider:
KBLM, 3N6, N12
KWRI, KNEL, ZNY
JohnN
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« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2013, 05:32:23 PM »

So the FAA tower will probably never happen (unless I find some free money laying on the ground) but on a serious note, does anyone have any ideas on how I might be able to improve my reception? You can see pictures of my current setup over in the Pictures forum.
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Feed Provider:
KBLM, 3N6, N12
KWRI, KNEL, ZNY
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2013, 06:04:54 PM »

John, forget the LMR, will not get you anything at these frequencies, especially if you are running quad shield RG-6. The difference in loss between the two with your length run is only 1.5dB or less, which is barely the difference between breaking squelch and not. The first thing you need to do is decide how important the UHF is to you... if not that important, you have better options, firstly being the antenna. What we need to do is plot the distance and azimuth of all the stations you need to pick up, the frequencies and the relative strength observed of each station, strongest being a "10" and working down, in fact just dividing into four groups, "full quieting", "solid copy", "noisy" and "Can hear something if I open the squelch" is enough for the survey. Anything "not at all" with your current setup is not likely to ever be brought to "solid copy" without an extraordinary deployment of money and effort. You plot that map, then we determine the ideal pattern that would "normalize" the signals all around, then design the system needed to achieve the objective.

For example, if you have solid copy of the local CTAF's including planes on the ground, and the gain to the ocean needs to be bumped up a couple dB to make the ground more solid, the solution could be as simple as a ground plane antenna side-mounted on the mast at the proper azimuth and spacing. On the other end would be a superior omni antenna like a j-pole or sleeve dipole for the CTAF's with a two element beam aimed east for the oceanic stuff, since most of the traffic is there anyway. More exotic solutions can combine the two into one, such as a beam (or 2-el phased array) with an additional offset parasitic element to distort the pattern and give you two gain lobes, perhaps one due west with 6dB gain for some local airport and another to the southeast with 8dB gain for some other airport or region. Anything can be modeled and anything can be built for little money, so we just have to determine the requirements and the rest is pretty easy.

You've already got your antenna up 25-30 feet I suspect,unless you at least double the elevation you will be dismayed, and at double the elevation you will not be impressed, either. Unless trees are an issue there really is no difference until you go from 30 to about 100 feet and/or above surrounding trees,in terms of your effective real-world radio horizon, and even there one or more directional arrays are easier and cheaper. It's not that I am against maximum elevation, it's just when you are already at around 30 feet or so (verses ten) you really need to triple to get a worthwhile return, so the expense of a typical 50 to 60 foot tower is simply not worth it (especially to a spouse) unless you plan to hang lots of other stuff up there. You also significantly increase, like by as much as ten-fold, the likelihood of a direct hit since you now are competing with utility wires and poles for a dose of the Wrath of God.

Another upgrade would be using a better preamp, like those from Advanced Receiver Research, designed specifically for the band (which is why you have to decide about UHF), mounted right at the antenna and powered via the coax. That will give you 20dB to offset the -3dB for the coax run and -6dB for a 4-way splitter, giving you around 10dB net overall gain, which is the most you should consider when you are using consumer grade equipment (scanners). That preamp may even be selective enough to eliminate the need for that stub.

If it were me, the first thing I would do (after the survey) is go with the preamp, because that would be a keeper, basically essential given the length of your down-lead, and an integral component to any eventual solution.

Anyway, that's my take on it, and that's all for now.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 06:09:48 PM by InterpreDemon » Logged

Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
JohnN
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KBLM, KWRI, KNEL, 3N6, N12, ZNY


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« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2013, 06:30:45 PM »

It was Dave's idea to put the UHF frequencies in, so I'll ask him if he wants me to keep them. If not, I'll go from there. I got my antenna just high enough to clear the roofline, so I'm not planning on raising it any higher (unless I found a 100' tower really cheap). Any upgrades are probably going to have to wait a while, because I already have too much money into this, between the new scanner and antenna.

I think the first thing I'd like to do is split ZNY onto it's own feed, separate of KWRI/KNEL. I could get a 3rd scanner cheap on ebay, but I don't have anything to connect it to. I guess I could have 2 feeds going through the Pi, and the 3rd feed through my laptop, which is always on. If I do that, I could probably set up 4 scanners. I think my laptop has 2 free USB ports. I think my ideal setup would be:

Scanner 1          Scanner 2               Scanner 3
Local CTAF's       KWRI/KNEL/           ZNY Frequencies
                        McGuire Approach
                        McGuire Departure
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Feed Provider:
KBLM, 3N6, N12
KWRI, KNEL, ZNY
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2013, 06:39:30 PM »

Dave, can he split the stereo devices on that PI and run four?
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
JetScan1
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« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2013, 07:05:48 PM »

Your aircraft reception range is approaching theoretical maximum line of site distances now. From what I've heard so far it is one of the best feeds for aircraft reception on LiveATC. Given your distance from the ground stations you are covering I'd be surprised if there is really anything you can do that would noticeable improve your controller reception, short of moving closer to the transmitters or running the feed tethered to a hot air balloon at 500 feet.

My only comment would be that you are scanning too many frequencies making it difficult to follow sometimes, I'd start by removing ZNY 125.325 as it's already covered well on other feeds. Splitting the feeds as you suggested would be a good idea, I'd be happy to donate some funds to cover an extra scanner if you can accomodate it.
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dave
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« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2013, 08:04:10 PM »

Dave, can he split the stereo devices on that PI and run four?

We're not splitting that setup.  Stereo feeds are used sparingly - they just confuse listeners.

I'm kind of busy until Monday…will comment more then.  Great comments but nothing is changing on this setup until I figure out some other requirements.  It isn't all about Center coverage.  smiley

We have other ways to get Center coverage…it doesn't all have to come from John's site.  It just might involve some waiting.  smiley
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2013, 08:30:42 PM »

Waiting? Like waiting to get something going in ATL? THAT kind of waiting? OMG!  smiley

I was talking about splitting the stereo into two mono, not running dizzy, stereo that only bipolar folks can listen to.

Been listening for a bit and I'm not sure the 33.5 coverage is deep enough anyway, hearing the outbound hand-offs to ARINC but not the inbound check-ins coming over from HF, which I CAN get from LI
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
JohnN
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KBLM, KWRI, KNEL, 3N6, N12, ZNY


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« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2013, 08:43:59 PM »

Okay, so for now I'll go back to the original frequencies. I'll remove 33.5 and 25.32 until we can figure something out.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to search ebay for some hot air balloons. Oh, and I have to check the real estate ads for homes closer to the transmitters.

Okay, we're back to the original frequencies.
If I can get a 3rd scanner cheap, separating KWRI/KNEL and ZNY shouldn't be a problem. I'll just hook one scanner up to my laptop, and leave the others on the Pi.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 08:57:58 PM by JohnN » Logged

Feed Provider:
KBLM, 3N6, N12
KWRI, KNEL, ZNY
JohnN
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« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2013, 09:03:18 PM »

Your aircraft reception range is approaching theoretical maximum line of site distances now. From what I've heard so far it is one of the best feeds for aircraft reception on LiveATC.
I know my aircraft-side reception is good, because sometimes I can hear when they are skydiving in Pennridge airport, which is over 60 miles from me.Not to mention I'm picking up Robbinsville loud and clear, which is about 20 miles away.
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Feed Provider:
KBLM, 3N6, N12
KWRI, KNEL, ZNY
ferraraj
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« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2013, 01:03:50 AM »

Wow...I was gone all day...didn't intend to start such a hot topic. I'll add my 2 cents worth...

128.3 does xmit from a different site than 133.5. (Ship bottom) When on the GS Pkwy it's noticeable...a few miles difference makes all the difference in reception...only a few places can hear both ground sides well. My comments about 133.5 being heard from HYA (via 125.92) as well, seems that it's intermittent there for various reasons...so this 133.5 feed might be our best shot at a consistent ZNY Atlantic sector coverage. Often aircraft checking in over BERGH, JOBOC, SLATN, etc cannot be heard....but as they get closer, they are picked up fine. This is normal listening for this sector. Too bad about 128.3, but thanks for trying.

As far as 125.32 & 118.97...  Right now this is the only feed catching the ground-side of both of these so with 133.5 there are three great and in my opinion very important and very busy ZNY sectors we are hearing. We need to leave it up to the feed purveyor and Dave to decide how to best handle it... I'm sure  he sees the big picture in so far as to what's coming on line soon, etc...

As far as 126.02 and 133.52 ZNY off-shore sectors...they (ground) are only xmitting from NC area...I heard them last time I was down there-outer banks & ILM area. They have listed NJ locations but I think only for back-up. NEVER heard them from nj shore or Atlantic city. 121.02 is a ZDC low sector...never heard ground side from shore area either.

Hope this helps...
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Feed Provider:
ZBW Boston Center (RKA10)
ZBW Boston Center (ART08/UCA09)
KEWR Twr/Gnd/Cl Dl
N90-EWR (Dep/ARD/North/MUGZY)
N90-LGA (EMPYR)
N90-Liberty (S)
N90-Liberty (W)
JohnN
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« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2013, 01:38:55 AM »

I'll leave the final decision to Dave, because like you said, he knows if there is someone else coming online soon, and after all, it is his website. I don't mind adding more frequencies, but the ZNY/KWRI/KNEL feed is already crowded. I really would like to get a 3rd scanner to separate ZNY and NEL/WRI. I like hearing the military comms at WRI/NEL, but they tend to get lost because of how busy the ZNY part of it is.

Now I'm listening, and I'm not hearing the ground side on one of the ZNY freq.'s. I'll have to check squelch and see if this wind broke my antenna or something. Been pretty gusty, so hopefully everything holds up.
Until tomorrow (or rather, today),
John
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Feed Provider:
KBLM, 3N6, N12
KWRI, KNEL, ZNY
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