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| | |-+  New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6
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Author Topic: New feed: BLM/WRI/NEL/N12/3N6  (Read 140192 times)
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2013, 06:04:54 PM »

John, forget the LMR, will not get you anything at these frequencies, especially if you are running quad shield RG-6. The difference in loss between the two with your length run is only 1.5dB or less, which is barely the difference between breaking squelch and not. The first thing you need to do is decide how important the UHF is to you... if not that important, you have better options, firstly being the antenna. What we need to do is plot the distance and azimuth of all the stations you need to pick up, the frequencies and the relative strength observed of each station, strongest being a "10" and working down, in fact just dividing into four groups, "full quieting", "solid copy", "noisy" and "Can hear something if I open the squelch" is enough for the survey. Anything "not at all" with your current setup is not likely to ever be brought to "solid copy" without an extraordinary deployment of money and effort. You plot that map, then we determine the ideal pattern that would "normalize" the signals all around, then design the system needed to achieve the objective.

For example, if you have solid copy of the local CTAF's including planes on the ground, and the gain to the ocean needs to be bumped up a couple dB to make the ground more solid, the solution could be as simple as a ground plane antenna side-mounted on the mast at the proper azimuth and spacing. On the other end would be a superior omni antenna like a j-pole or sleeve dipole for the CTAF's with a two element beam aimed east for the oceanic stuff, since most of the traffic is there anyway. More exotic solutions can combine the two into one, such as a beam (or 2-el phased array) with an additional offset parasitic element to distort the pattern and give you two gain lobes, perhaps one due west with 6dB gain for some local airport and another to the southeast with 8dB gain for some other airport or region. Anything can be modeled and anything can be built for little money, so we just have to determine the requirements and the rest is pretty easy.

You've already got your antenna up 25-30 feet I suspect,unless you at least double the elevation you will be dismayed, and at double the elevation you will not be impressed, either. Unless trees are an issue there really is no difference until you go from 30 to about 100 feet and/or above surrounding trees,in terms of your effective real-world radio horizon, and even there one or more directional arrays are easier and cheaper. It's not that I am against maximum elevation, it's just when you are already at around 30 feet or so (verses ten) you really need to triple to get a worthwhile return, so the expense of a typical 50 to 60 foot tower is simply not worth it (especially to a spouse) unless you plan to hang lots of other stuff up there. You also significantly increase, like by as much as ten-fold, the likelihood of a direct hit since you now are competing with utility wires and poles for a dose of the Wrath of God.

Another upgrade would be using a better preamp, like those from Advanced Receiver Research, designed specifically for the band (which is why you have to decide about UHF), mounted right at the antenna and powered via the coax. That will give you 20dB to offset the -3dB for the coax run and -6dB for a 4-way splitter, giving you around 10dB net overall gain, which is the most you should consider when you are using consumer grade equipment (scanners). That preamp may even be selective enough to eliminate the need for that stub.

If it were me, the first thing I would do (after the survey) is go with the preamp, because that would be a keeper, basically essential given the length of your down-lead, and an integral component to any eventual solution.

Anyway, that's my take on it, and that's all for now.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 06:09:48 PM by InterpreDemon » Logged

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KJFK ARINC
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(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

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JohnN
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« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2013, 06:30:45 PM »

It was Dave's idea to put the UHF frequencies in, so I'll ask him if he wants me to keep them. If not, I'll go from there. I got my antenna just high enough to clear the roofline, so I'm not planning on raising it any higher (unless I found a 100' tower really cheap). Any upgrades are probably going to have to wait a while, because I already have too much money into this, between the new scanner and antenna.

I think the first thing I'd like to do is split ZNY onto it's own feed, separate of KWRI/KNEL. I could get a 3rd scanner cheap on ebay, but I don't have anything to connect it to. I guess I could have 2 feeds going through the Pi, and the 3rd feed through my laptop, which is always on. If I do that, I could probably set up 4 scanners. I think my laptop has 2 free USB ports. I think my ideal setup would be:

Scanner 1          Scanner 2               Scanner 3
Local CTAF's       KWRI/KNEL/           ZNY Frequencies
                        McGuire Approach
                        McGuire Departure
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KWRI, KNEL, ZNY
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2013, 06:39:30 PM »

Dave, can he split the stereo devices on that PI and run four?
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HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
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JetScan1
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« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2013, 07:05:48 PM »

Your aircraft reception range is approaching theoretical maximum line of site distances now. From what I've heard so far it is one of the best feeds for aircraft reception on LiveATC. Given your distance from the ground stations you are covering I'd be surprised if there is really anything you can do that would noticeable improve your controller reception, short of moving closer to the transmitters or running the feed tethered to a hot air balloon at 500 feet.

My only comment would be that you are scanning too many frequencies making it difficult to follow sometimes, I'd start by removing ZNY 125.325 as it's already covered well on other feeds. Splitting the feeds as you suggested would be a good idea, I'd be happy to donate some funds to cover an extra scanner if you can accomodate it.
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dave
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« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2013, 08:04:10 PM »

Dave, can he split the stereo devices on that PI and run four?

We're not splitting that setup.  Stereo feeds are used sparingly - they just confuse listeners.

I'm kind of busy until Monday…will comment more then.  Great comments but nothing is changing on this setup until I figure out some other requirements.  It isn't all about Center coverage.  smiley

We have other ways to get Center coverage…it doesn't all have to come from John's site.  It just might involve some waiting.  smiley
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2013, 08:30:42 PM »

Waiting? Like waiting to get something going in ATL? THAT kind of waiting? OMG!  smiley

I was talking about splitting the stereo into two mono, not running dizzy, stereo that only bipolar folks can listen to.

Been listening for a bit and I'm not sure the 33.5 coverage is deep enough anyway, hearing the outbound hand-offs to ARINC but not the inbound check-ins coming over from HF, which I CAN get from LI
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HF NY VOLMET  6604

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JohnN
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« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2013, 08:43:59 PM »

Okay, so for now I'll go back to the original frequencies. I'll remove 33.5 and 25.32 until we can figure something out.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to search ebay for some hot air balloons. Oh, and I have to check the real estate ads for homes closer to the transmitters.

Okay, we're back to the original frequencies.
If I can get a 3rd scanner cheap, separating KWRI/KNEL and ZNY shouldn't be a problem. I'll just hook one scanner up to my laptop, and leave the others on the Pi.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 08:57:58 PM by JohnN » Logged

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JohnN
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« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2013, 09:03:18 PM »

Your aircraft reception range is approaching theoretical maximum line of site distances now. From what I've heard so far it is one of the best feeds for aircraft reception on LiveATC.
I know my aircraft-side reception is good, because sometimes I can hear when they are skydiving in Pennridge airport, which is over 60 miles from me.Not to mention I'm picking up Robbinsville loud and clear, which is about 20 miles away.
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ferraraj
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« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2013, 01:03:50 AM »

Wow...I was gone all day...didn't intend to start such a hot topic. I'll add my 2 cents worth...

128.3 does xmit from a different site than 133.5. (Ship bottom) When on the GS Pkwy it's noticeable...a few miles difference makes all the difference in reception...only a few places can hear both ground sides well. My comments about 133.5 being heard from HYA (via 125.92) as well, seems that it's intermittent there for various reasons...so this 133.5 feed might be our best shot at a consistent ZNY Atlantic sector coverage. Often aircraft checking in over BERGH, JOBOC, SLATN, etc cannot be heard....but as they get closer, they are picked up fine. This is normal listening for this sector. Too bad about 128.3, but thanks for trying.

As far as 125.32 & 118.97...  Right now this is the only feed catching the ground-side of both of these so with 133.5 there are three great and in my opinion very important and very busy ZNY sectors we are hearing. We need to leave it up to the feed purveyor and Dave to decide how to best handle it... I'm sure  he sees the big picture in so far as to what's coming on line soon, etc...

As far as 126.02 and 133.52 ZNY off-shore sectors...they (ground) are only xmitting from NC area...I heard them last time I was down there-outer banks & ILM area. They have listed NJ locations but I think only for back-up. NEVER heard them from nj shore or Atlantic city. 121.02 is a ZDC low sector...never heard ground side from shore area either.

Hope this helps...
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« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2013, 01:38:55 AM »

I'll leave the final decision to Dave, because like you said, he knows if there is someone else coming online soon, and after all, it is his website. I don't mind adding more frequencies, but the ZNY/KWRI/KNEL feed is already crowded. I really would like to get a 3rd scanner to separate ZNY and NEL/WRI. I like hearing the military comms at WRI/NEL, but they tend to get lost because of how busy the ZNY part of it is.

Now I'm listening, and I'm not hearing the ground side on one of the ZNY freq.'s. I'll have to check squelch and see if this wind broke my antenna or something. Been pretty gusty, so hopefully everything holds up.
Until tomorrow (or rather, today),
John
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« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2013, 01:54:22 PM »

Sounds like ground side is coming in fine again, so it must have just been a bit of bad reception. I got a question for you HF guys... What kind of setup do you run to pick up the HF? Are there special scanners or antennas involved? For example, would I be able to pick them up with my current setup?
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2013, 03:24:27 PM »

John, you need a shortwave receiver with sideband capability, as well as an appropriate antenna. Before even attempting I would first drive around your neighborhood with your car radio tuned to a weak AM station high on the dial (1300-1600) and see what kind of powerline, computer and TV noise might be in the area. If you are relatively rural (low noise level), you might be able to get away with an amplified vertical antenna like Dave uses up in NH, but the cheapest thing, property and available trees permitting, is to string up a simple horizontal dipole wire antenna, which can be more directional and picks up less man-made noise. For two of my three HF feeds I use old Radio Shack DX-400 portable receivers acquired at an average price of around $40, which can be modified to give pretty good performance, however with those consumer rigs you MUST have a narrow filter when using an external antenna because they will bleed all over the place at night when the HAMS and foreign broadcast start to pound the airwaves. Fortunately such filters are very cheap to make, needing nothing more than a couple inches of 2" PVC pipe, a few feet of rg-58 coax and a soldering iron. The Radio Shack solution is the best performance for the money solution I have found yet for HF. They are cheap, though they are old (from the 80's) and have common problems you need to look out for when buying, they are pretty stable if kept in a fairly temperature controlled environment, can give decent reception despite the use of a BFO instead of a product detector for sideband demodulation and are digital entry, which makes frequency selection easy.

There are also some USB dongle SDR (Software Defined Radio) receivers that work with a computer, which allows scheduled frequency hopping (higher bands are used during the day, lower at night) but they also suffer from poor selectivity and would require a filter or series of switched band filters. A step above that (as far as computer control) are pricier SDR's , often used by HAMs, which have much more selective RF circuitry and are essentially like the complete RF section of a radio without the audio back end or front panel controls, as well as many general coverage receivers, mostly made in Japan under well known names such as Drake, that are complete stand-alone receivers that may also have computer interface capability.

Finally there is used commercial gear, some legendary with names like Harris, Racal, Rockwell Collins, etc. from modern solid state ("sand state") back to "hollow state" tube rigs from the fifties and sixties that give extremely superior performance. I personally like the old, heavy stuff, but you need to be able to maintain it. My 6577/5550 feed uses a pair of somewhat legendary R-390 radios working together with a rarely seen CV-157 sideband converter, all configured (using only a hundred tubes) to merge and demodulate two different frequencies at once. It's different from simply merging two audio streams, the stronger signal from either receiver will suppress the signal or noise from the other. The feed is primarily on those two frequencies, but depending upon the band conditions ARINC may also go up to 8846 or 11396 during the day and down to 3455 or even 2887 at night, so if I am around and monitoring the bands in use I will re-tune the radio pair to track the primary and secondary frequencies in use at the time. Due to the heat generated in the equipment rack they serve double-duty heating the shack from fall to spring, but I do not run those rigs 24/7 for the feed in the summer when I would have to air-condition them and am often away and unable to babysit them anyway, so I switch to a pair of DX-400 rigs modified to work together in diversity reception the same way the boat-anchor rigs do.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 03:27:55 PM by InterpreDemon » Logged

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JohnN
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« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2013, 03:37:10 PM »

Thanks for all that info. I had a feeling special equipment was needed. I'm not really planning on trying to get anything HF, I was just curious. Maybe someday I'll give it a try. Sounds like there's a lot more involved than picking up the VHF frequencies.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2013, 04:31:23 PM »

I don't know that it's harder, just different. In fact except for localized sources of interference that are generally not a problem with VHF, HF is in some ways easier since, with the same equipment you in NJ, me in CT and Dave in NH would be able to receive the same signals at about the same strength most of the time, whereas with VHF you can pick up the ground side of 133.5 where he and I never will, and there are other complex forms of interference or challenges to reception that often require specialized test equipment and significant expertise or experience with two-way radio. Anyway, there are some coverage gaps in HF for the Caribbean and North Atlantic routes, for example 3016, 5520 and 8906, so first you (or others) get your hands on a portable SW receiver or spend more time listening to the HF feeds and see if you catch the bug. Except for my two decades as an active pilot, I almost never listened to VHF unless in the cockpit, but have listened to aeronautical HF since I was about ten years old.
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« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2013, 05:14:32 PM »

Maybe someday I'll give it a try. I'd try now, but you know how money always keeps you from doing anything fun. First thing I gotta do is split up ZNY and WRI/NEL.
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« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2013, 07:38:11 PM »

I hope we will decide to add 133.5 back onto the ZNY part of the WRI scan before the storm moves in Tuesday! Should be some very interesting listening Tues & Wed...even if its all busy!
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« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2013, 07:58:32 PM »

I do have an idea of how to include 33.5 in preparation for the storm, but it would only be a temporary solution. I could see how it comes in on the dedicated CTAF scanner, and if I get the ground side, leave it on there from Tues-Wed (in addition to the CTAF's). The local airports aren't too busy this time of year, so I wouldn't be missing much. The only problem may be that I think the CTAF scanner has a lower sensitivity, so I might not be able to pick up ground. Well, Dave said he'd be back tomorrow, so I'll see if he has any suggestions. The final decision of course is up to him.
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« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2013, 09:33:26 PM »

I only say that cuz you had it in your scanner before when you were scanning 118.97, 125.32 & 133.5 together a day or so ago... All received ground-side fine. Whatever you (and Dave) can do is appreciated...
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« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2013, 09:42:59 PM »

That's not a bad idea. CTAF's are probably less busy, especially if you can't pick up those little planes when they are on the ground. Just use the delay on 133.5 and not the others, to try to hold both sides (assuming you can pick up both sides with that scanner). It would be nice to monitor that freq from your location for a while, because as I said I am not sure you are picking up the arrivals when they first check in, which is at maximum range and may even be over your radio horizon. Even the Long Island south shore ARINC 129.9 feed can miss a plane here and there out at ZIBUT or OKONU, especially if they are at lower altitude, and that's an excellent, purpose designed antenna and amplified feed line system at almost sixty feet and in the clear. The check-ins are usually fifty miles even further south of of those waypoints, which theoretically you should be able to get if you had the equivalent performance because you are almost fifty miles closer to most of them. You may literally only get them at low tide... I'm not kidding. We'll see.
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HF NY VOLMET  6604

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« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2013, 09:51:54 PM »

I'll put 33.5 on the CTAF scanner for a little bit right now and see what I get.
Now to find the manual so I can figure out how to program that scanner again...
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« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2013, 10:01:13 PM »

Okay, holding 33.5 on the BLM feed for a little while. On a side note, the ground side of ZNY is coming in great tonight. Must be good atmospheric conditions.

I think it sounds like ground is coming in. I have no problem leaving 33.5 on during the storm, but I'll wait to see if Dave has any objections or other suggestions. I'll leave it in the scan with the delay until I hear back from Dave.
Okay, I don't see a delay button, so I guess there is no delay feature. Maybe it's on by default.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 10:15:33 PM by JohnN » Logged

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ferraraj
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« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2013, 11:13:51 PM »

Good news...Great Thanks!
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Re:
« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2013, 11:33:01 PM »

It's good to hear that you added 133.5 again. That's always a good frequency to listen to. The radio shack has a delay button, the bearcat does not. A delay is automatically included in the bearcat, you can't turn it off (unfortunately). Thanks John!

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using tapatalk
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ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 3
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ZBW (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
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« Reply #73 on: November 24, 2013, 11:44:09 PM »

Yeah, I think I could live with this setup until I get myself a dedicated NEL/WRI scanner. As an aside, I see you have a Galaxy S4. I just ordered one Friday, and it should come tomorrow. Looking forward to replacing my iPhone.
Wow, I can't believe this is up to 73 posts. I really wasn't expecting my feed(s) to become so popular.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2013, 03:59:39 AM »

No, it's 74
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
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