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| | |-+  New ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) feed!
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Author Topic: New ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) feed!  (Read 25040 times)
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2013, 12:51:55 PM »

I'll see if I can pick up any trace elements of the ground from here.

You say you can't get it from Pop's?
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
RonR
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« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2013, 12:59:27 PM »

No, not even a hint of a signal, yet I used to be able to hear a low signal from here in North Babylon.  At the moment though I can only hear an occasional very faint voice riding in the noise.  It's totally unintelligible though and doesn't come close to breaking squelch.  One of my projects is to resurrect my 3-element yagi and point it that way and see what happens...after reading some of the advice you gave Loon in PA, I'm going to try and play with the Yagi again.
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Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #4
ZBW Boston Center (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW Boston Center (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2013, 02:21:10 PM »

If you can hear it at all, a 3-el should do it. Use the VE3SQB software model for a 3-el, tuned to 125. It's the best 3 element model I have ever used.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2013, 07:46:49 PM »

Ron - Listening to your 134 feed, telltale sound of wall-wart power supply. How about I send you a 12v switching supply you can wire up to power both radios... no charge.

Also, that digital hash under the carriers sounds like network... you got any wireless or CAT5 near the radios?
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
RonR
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« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2013, 10:10:57 PM »

Hey ID, just got home from work...

The feed setup is about a foot away from a WiFi router and about three feet from a VoIP telephone box.

There's also an old TV signal amplifier inline that I'm sure is enhancing the digital noise but it does make the controller on 134.0 much easier to understand.  Before the amplifier you could hear the guy but not as good as now.  I know it's not the right amplifier for this kind of setup but it was all I had at the moment.  Unfortunately my parents live in a gated community so raising the quarter-wave airband antenna any higher is most likely out of the question.  The antenna itself is being used to supply both radios and the signal is being split by a simple 5 - 900MHz splitter.

The Pi is housed in a white plastic case unlike the black metal case that houses the Pi I'm using at home.  The Pi sits right on top of the radios.  I'm wondering if there should be some separation of the radios and the Pi...

I also had a situation yesterday when I was there where the scanning action of one radio introduced a fairly loud taping noise into the audio of the other feed.  It almost sounded like a jack hammer.  I've attached a 10 second file so you can hear what I'm talking about.  It took me a while to figure out where that noise was coming from but I finally found that it occurred whenever one of the radios was scanning.  The noise could only be heard on the ccc2 feed whenever the ccc1 radio was scanning.  There was no problem with that particular noise while listening to the ccc1 feed.  The noise disappeared when the amplifier was placed in line.  I'm not sure I understand why it vanished, I'm just happy it went away.

I don't know offhand the make of the power supply, but it is rated at 500mA and is powering both radios.  I'm curious, what is it that you're hearing that makes you suspect a less than adequate power supply?  I would be happy to try your power supply if you think it will improve performance.  I will PM you my address...

Thanks for your help  smiley

Ron
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Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #4
ZBW Boston Center (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW Boston Center (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2013, 12:45:12 AM »

The PS will definitely take care of the hum. Those wall warts are notoriously poorly regulated even if a half amp was adequate, which it is not for two radios. I'll send you a supply.

The WiFi router IS the source of the digital hash. It is most likely getting into the radios via the audio and power cables, not the feed line, so what you need to do is snap some ferrites around those cables (the donut things you see on VGA cables and such. You can get them at Radio Crap. You should wrap as many turns through the donuts as you can, and as close to the radio as you can. If that fails, you can install the radios in a metal enclosure with feed-throughs, but I'd try the beads first.

As to the jackhammer, that's one (or more) of the channels on the scanning radio generating an oscillator frequency that is mixing with something else and generating a mirror in the other radio. Depending upon the radio and circumstances it may be impossible to eliminate, or as simple as adding a reject stub here or there. I have even had situations where radios had such cross-talk when on two different antennas... signals going up the feed line, jumping between the antennas and back down the other side. In your case, both radios probably have the standard IF (Intermediate Frequency... the difference between mixer oscillator frequency and received frequency) of 10.7 mHz, and it just so happens that the 121.5 channel on one radio is 10.8 mHz away from the 132.3 on the other which means that depending upon whether by design they mix "up" or "down", the 121.5 radio could be providing interference on 132.2, or the 132.3 radio could be interfering at 121.6  100kHz is not much for bleed-box scanners with high gain front ends. Now, if that cross-talk is via the audio and power cables, the donuts will fix that, too, and the fact that the addition of the amplifier cleaned it up tells me it brought the noise level up from the desired source (the antenna) and swamped it out... but it is still in there.

One thing you could definitely do that costs nothing and can only help, would be to tee-in a half-wave open (or 1/4 wave shorted) 133.15 coax stub on the 132/134 radio, which will act as a band pass filter. The other radio has 121.5 and 135.8, so there's not much you can do about that one. But first you need to de-couple the power and audio lines, then we'll see where we're at.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
RonR
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« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2013, 12:19:22 PM »

Good morning ID,

A big thank you for all that advice!

I hear the hum you're talking about, I really didn't notice it before...I can hear it even when there's no radio chatter.  I'd swear that it was never there before.

I will definitely try the ferrite core idea as soon as I can get out to my parents place again (which probably won't be for two weeks).  If I could get rid of that noise I would be very happy.  Would you wrap both the + and - side of the power cable or just the + side?  And would you use a separate ferrite core for each application (power cable and the two audio cables)?

Once again, thanks very much for your ideas and suggestions, I greatly appreciate it!

Ron

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Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #4
ZBW Boston Center (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW Boston Center (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2013, 02:09:59 PM »

Just wrap both power lines around together, assuming it is mini zip cord (like speaker wire), and use separate cores for power and audio, and we'll see what that changes. If the PI is not enclosed in anything you might think about putting it in an 8" aluminum baking pan with foil "cover", then strapping the two radio chassis and the pan together with some short, reasonably heavy wires or coax braid, but that would be the next test. With all the chassis bonded together and interconnections properly decoupled you really should not have a problem.

One other thing that I would do is disable the wireless if you have access to the router setup, or remove the antenna, and see if that changes the hash level, because it is important to determine whether we are getting wireless RF or harmonic emissions from the electronics themselves, or even network cabling, which can be shielded. When I first set up my VHF feeds I was getting random crap for a few weeks until I (stupidly) remembered I had a wireless AP up on the same tower, and the only solution was relocating the AP.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
RonR
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« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2013, 06:25:15 PM »

Funny, I never even thought of turning off the WiFi...I'll try that when I get home from work in a couple of hours...

I also found an old Sony car audio equalizer in my basement that has a ferrite core on the + side of the power line.  I could experiment with that...

The Pi is enclosed in a plastic case designed for the Pi.

Thanks again!
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Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #4
ZBW Boston Center (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW Boston Center (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2013, 07:39:22 PM »

I'm confused... I thought the 134 Rx was out at pop's, and that was where the WiFi was right next to the rigs. I'm hearing the hum and hash out there.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
RonR
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« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2013, 10:37:12 PM »

The 134.0 feed is at my parents place but I can link to their PC from here so I should be able to access their router remotely and shut off the wifi. Their pc is hard wired to the network so it shouldn't be a problem.  But I got home from work a lot later than planned so I'll have to try that tomorrow.  Their router does not have an external antenna on it.
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Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #4
ZBW Boston Center (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW Boston Center (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
RonR
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« Reply #86 on: September 18, 2013, 11:28:15 AM »

Hey ID,

Forgot that my parents are away for a few days so there's no one to turn the PC on.  It'll have to wait till they get back.

But I have basically the same setup here at home for the two JFK area feeds.  The WiFi router is just as close to the feed setup as at my parents place.  When you get a chance have a listen...to me it sounds like the same kind of hash as from my other two feeds...

Thanks, Ron
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Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #4
ZBW Boston Center (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW Boston Center (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #87 on: September 18, 2013, 07:18:05 PM »

Yeah, and you got the same hum at both, so that means I'll send you TWO power supplies.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
ferraraj
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« Reply #88 on: September 21, 2013, 02:16:31 PM »

Ron...two things:

#1 - CCC feeds sounds GREAT...nicely done with the fix!

#2 - What do you think about throwing 127.375 (ZBW-DNY24 HI) onto your JFK Feed #2? I have been listening more carefully in the past month or so, and time and time again, a lot of action occurs on this sector. My RKA feed covers the same area but FL280 and above. 127.37 covers FL180-270...incl many Lower JFK IGN9 arrivals, EWR SHAFF7 and LGA-RKA arrivals are descended and handed-off to this sector. Its the upstream hand-off on arrivals to 125.57 (IGN20) & 134.3. It'd be a great ground side to hear, but unfort, too many hills between my Dads house and the site...they transmit from Rockdale, NY... I can only hear it from my Dad's with an open squelch.
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Feed Provider:
ZBW Boston Center (RKA10)
ZBW Boston Center (ART08/UCA09)
KEWR Twr/Gnd/Cl Dl
N90-EWR (Dep/ARD/North/MUGZY)
N90-LGA (EMPYR)
N90-Liberty (S)
N90-Liberty (W)
RonR
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« Reply #89 on: September 21, 2013, 07:44:56 PM »

Hey Jim,

I'm glad you like the way the CCC feeds sound.  But I don't know if you noticed, over the past couple of days the squelch on the CCC2 feed has been stuck open and I believe that was due in part to the 20dB TV amplifier I put in line to help make up for the splitter.  It seemed to work fine while I was here at my parents place, but not long after I left the squelch opened up and stayed open.  It would close occasionally but as soon as 134.0 lit up, it would stay open again.

So I got my Mom on the phone and had her turn the squelch up and she had to turn it up almost all the way before the squelch closed.  I then had her take out the amplifier and that solved the squelch problem but it brought back the tapping interference sound that could be heard on the CCC2 feed.  This sound was being caused whenever the CCC1 scanner was scanning.  The two radios are sitting one on top of the other.  It was an annoying chatter that was loud enough at times to drown out the 134.0 controller.

So here I am at my parents place.  I swapped out the CCC1 radio with another radio and that seems to have helped.  There's still some chatter in the background on the CCC2 feed but it's much better than it was.  I also put in a 10dB amplifier instead of the 20dB amp and it seems to be running fairly well now.

As far as 127.375 goes, yes it would be nice to have that in there.  I have started the ball rolling on splitting the two JFK feeds into four.  This will make it much easier to follow what is going on.  Each feed will have only three or four frequencies on it instead of the 10-12 that are on a single feed now.  Plus I'm considering putting in a feed at my brothers place.  He lives about an hour and a half north of NYC.  This would be a good place to run 127.375 from.  It's not close enough to hear the ground side, but aircraft reception would be excellent from there.  I could also put in 132.175 there.  Again no ground side from there but aircraft reception would also be very good from there.

A lot going on...If only there were more than 24 hours in a day  grin

Ron
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Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) #4
ZBW Boston Center (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW Boston Center (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
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