Newark Side by Side Approach ?

[trainingac]

Yesterday around noon a commuter and larger aircraft came in almost side by side from the south to newark.  I have lived in the area a long time and never saw them that close and side by side. Just curious as to what could caused this to happen?

[tyketto]

Yesterday around noon a commuter and larger aircraft came in almost side by side from the south to newark.  I have lived in the area a long time and never saw them that close and side by side. Just curious as to what could caused this to happen?

This actually happens more commonly than not. This is where simultaneous approaches to parallel runways are in effect. This is used primarily at KSFO, where you'll see them approach and land side by side. It happens often at LAX, PHX, and when runways 1L and 1R are in use at LAS. If the smaller aircraft is ahead, as long as the larger aircraft doesn't pass them, there won't be a controller error due to the wake turbulence produced by the larger aircraft.

As for why this happened, the answer is probably on the Approach feed for EWR. The controller there probably coordinated this with tower. For reasons why, you'll have to listen to the archive of the feed at the time to see why the controller did it that way.

BL.

[trainingac]

I appreciate the reply BL.  As you can guess I am not a pilot nor a controller just an interested listener. Just seemed out of the norm for EWR. 
Stay Safe,
G

[jsapyta]

The controller probably didn't give enough distance between the two parallel aircraft on approach and I'm sure the tower told the guy not do it again.

 

[aevins]

You can't do parallel simultaneous precision approaches (like with a PRM) at EWR because the runways are too close. You can have one aircraft on the ILS and the other aircraft flying the charted visual though.

[tyketto]

You can't do parallel simultaneous precision approaches (like with a PRM) at EWR because the runways are too close. You can have one aircraft on the ILS and the other aircraft flying the charted visual though.

Happen to know the distance between the 22s at EWR? In particular, in comparison with the distance between the 28s at SFO..

BL.

[MIAMIATC]

We have that here in TPA with 18L/18R. There are time in a 5 minute span there will literally be a good 10 arrivals within that time span. Granted TPA isnt EWR but I think EWR would benefit greatly with that setup. Maybe whrn they are using the 22's for landing they can use 29 as takeoffs to pick up the slack and when the 4's are in use use 11 as a takeoff. That woudl be interesting takeoff SID with a hard r turn with Manhattan in full view for the Pilots and passengers. 

[aevins]

They are 950 feet apart. I read an article about the future possibility of using simultaneous precision approaches at that distance but it's not happening anytime soon. 11/29 is used heavily, here are the possible configurations:

http://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/east/zny/ewr/ewr_tm.htm

[tyketto]

They are 950 feet apart. I read an article about the future possibility of using simultaneous precision approaches at that distance but it's not happening anytime soon. 11/29 is used heavily, here are the possible configurations:

http://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/east/zny/ewr/ewr_tm.htm

Interesting. The 28s at SFO are 750 apart, centerline to centerline, with no center taxiway, and they primarily use CVFPs when in VMC and one of the ILS approaches in IMC in their normal/calm wind setup. Inigo knows more on that one, but they definitely use simultaneous approaches there. They may even use PRM with the ILS to 28L and LDA/DME to 28R, but I haven't heard those approaches being used lately.

BL.

[aevins]

As long as they are not both precision approaches then I don't think you will have a PRM.

[cessna157]

You can't do parallel simultaneous precision approaches (like with a PRM) at EWR because the runways are too close. You can have one aircraft on the ILS and the other aircraft flying the charted visual though.

No, but what would stop visual approaches from being conducted?

[tyketto]

You can't do parallel simultaneous precision approaches (like with a PRM) at EWR because the runways are too close. You can have one aircraft on the ILS and the other aircraft flying the charted visual though.

No, but what would stop visual approaches from being conducted?

That's kind of my point as well, as the Quiet Bridge and TipToe CVFPs are used at SFO, and if visibility is bad, they'll go to ILS 28L/28R, but still simultaneous approaches and landings occur.. So I'm not too sure that distance between the runways is an issue, if SFO has less distance between the 28s..

BL.

[joeyb747]

I've seen them come in side-by-side at KDTW as well. KDTW has four parallel runways, 4L/22R, 4R/22L, 3L/21R, and 3R/21L. Pretty good distance between all four of these runways thou...

9L/27R and 9R/27L are rarely used.

4L/22R is the "new" runway. I have linked to a diagram of KDTW below.
 
http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/DTW/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM/pdf

[inigo88]

Thanks for thinking of me on this one BL.

In VMC the CVFPs are utilized at SFO. Historically in IMC only one runway could be used so the ILS Runway 28R was used ONLY and runway 28L was shut down. This cut the airport's arrival capacity by 50% and caused significant delays!

More recently SFO can do simultaneous IMC arrivals thanks to the LDA PRM Rwy 28R and ILS PRM Rwy 28L approaches. The LDA approach includes a glideslope, making it not unlike the old IGS Rwy 13 at Kai Tak. You probably recall seeing the PRM monitors when we toured NCT. Unfortunately due to staffing constraints at NCT I've heard the PRM is barely ever used, despite the fact that all of the equipment is in place and ready for use! I guess they can't afford to pay an extra guy to look at the screen and make sure no one flies off course into the red box (No Transgression Zone)...

In regards to EWR, I believe they also fall into single runway ops during IMC. 7110.65 5-5-4 Radar Separation Minima says "Consider parallel runways less  2500 ft apart as a single runway because of the possible effects of wake turbulence." In VMC I don't think it's unheard of from them to chain up a bunch of simultaneous in trail visual approaches, so I'm surprised to hear the side-by landings don't happen there more.

Regards,

Inigo

[cessna157]

I think they cannot do simul. landings there due to the lack of runways.  It would cause problems for departures.

That's interesting about the LDA with glideslope at SFO.  I have been looking around for different airports that use SOIA procedures.  My airline trains for them, but they are very rare to find.  I think STL and CLE offer them too....?