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Author Topic: Normal Speed?  (Read 6612 times)
JetBlue
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« on: June 03, 2005, 03:59:19 PM »

OK, I've been listening to airband traffic for years...what is "normal speed?"
Thanks!
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Kieran J O'Hagan
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dave
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2005, 04:11:05 PM »

Quote from: JetBlue
OK, I've been listening to airband traffic for years...what is "normal speed?"
Thanks!


It basically means speed at pilot's discretion.  You will hear this often when a Center controller is descending an aircaft on a STAR and doesn't need (or want) the pilot to maintain a certain speed at a crossing fix.

For example,

Boston Center: "AAL210, cross Providence at and maintain 11,000, normal speed, Providence altimeter three-zero-one-five."

The ORW3 STAR into KBOS calls for 250 knots at the Providence VOR (PVD), but in this case the controller is not restricting the aircraft to 250 knots.

However, all aircraft are restricted to 250 knots (KIAS) or lower below 10,000 MSL, at least here in the United States (reference the FARs).

-Dave
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Kiel McGowan
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2005, 10:44:34 PM »

Also a lot of times controllers will issue speed restrictions on departures/arrivals for spacing, once they achieve the spacing they need they can allow the plane to speed up/slow down at their discretion.  In that case they would state "resume normal speed".
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hopskip
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2005, 09:38:56 AM »

Quote from: dave

It basically means speed at pilot's discretion.  You will hear this often when a Center controller is descending an aircaft on a STAR and doesn't need (or want) the pilot to maintain a certain speed at a crossing fix.

For example,

Boston Center: "AAL210, cross Providence at and maintain 11,000, normal speed, Providence altimeter three-zero-one-five."

The ORW3 STAR into KBOS calls for 250 knots at the Providence VOR (PVD), but in this case the controller is not restricting the aircraft to 250 knots.

However, all aircraft are restricted to 250 knots (KIAS) or lower below 10,000 MSL, at least here in the United States (reference the FARs).

-Dave


I would not expect a controller to say "normal speed" in this case, but rather "Cancell Speed" (ie Cancell the speed restriction).

Normal speed is, instead, more often used in the situation explained in the post above.
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dave
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2005, 09:48:03 AM »

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I would not expect a controller to say "normal speed" in this case, but rather "Cancell Speed" (ie Cancell the speed restriction).

Normal speed is, instead, more often used in the situation explained in the post above.


You're technically correct...the use of the term "normal speed" in the FAA 7110.65 is in the context of "resume normal speed" after a speed restriction has been cancelled.  But you will often hear phraseology that is not explicitly spelled out in the FAA 7110.65.  This is one of them.  It will vary from controller to controller, too.

Listen to this feed and you'll hear it often:
http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/bos_gdm_ctr.m3u

"Eagle Flight Four-Ninety-Seven, cross BRONC at one-one-thousand, speed at your discretion, Boston altimeter three-zero-zero-eight."

So in this application you'll hear "speed at your discretion" and occasionally "normal speed."  As with anything like this, the important thing is that the pilots understand what the controller wants, without any ambiguity.
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Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2005, 10:10:18 PM »

When I was in Peterborough, listening to flights transition from the Peterborough/East radar sector into the Toronto TCU, I heard most flights to cross the WASIE fix level and at 200 knots or less.  Or during the climb after departing Toronto into the same sector, I always hear, "Air Canada 123, turn right heading 130 degrees, vectors for Watertown, two-hundred knots or greater."
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FSS wannabe, just curious about stuff, that's all.
Falcon900
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2005, 06:53:15 AM »

I understand listening to Dublin controllers that they also offer "free speed" for climb after departure when there are no controls in place.

Think I hear correct on that but could be wrong.

please advise.

rgds

Hayden
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dave
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2005, 12:24:41 PM »

Quote from: Falcon900
I understand listening to Dublin controllers that they also offer "free speed" for climb after departure when there are no controls in place.

Think I hear correct on that but could be wrong.

please advise



I believe you are right.  In Amsterdam, and I believe in Germany and possibly other places in Europe, you will hear the phrase "speed is yours" to indicate the same thing.

Dave
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BigOkie
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2005, 11:15:43 PM »

A couple of years ago certain approach areas had the 10k/250 restriction waived as part of a test.  I know Houston TX had it waived.  I'm not sure that the test is complete and the restriction is still waived, but I do know they did waive it at one point.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2005, 08:30:14 AM »

Quote from: hopskip
I would not expect a controller to say "normal speed" in this case, but rather "Cancell Speed" (ie Cancell the speed restriction).

Normal speed is, instead, more often used in the situation explained in the post above.


Dave's observation matches mine.  I fly into Boston Logan about once a month and I *always* overhear  controllers using the phrase as in Dave's example.  

If I had to guess, I would say that the Boston controllers are using the phrase as a pre-emptive measure, since if they don't include it the airline pilots almost always call back asking about the speed restriction, further tying up a busy frequency.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
LORm
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2005, 04:46:46 AM »

Usually only after 1900, departure control at PHNL will grant requests to jet air carriers to cancel the 250kt 10000 feet speed restriction and issue, "speed your discretion". It's mainly the heavies that ask for this and usually they'll use the terms "xxxx requesting high speed climb" or "xxxx request cancel speed restriction"
-LorM
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Jason
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2005, 09:04:22 AM »

You will also hear, "off-shore rules apply" sometimes.  When you are 12nm from the shoreline in the US you do not have to be below 250 knots below 10,000.

In Florida, the controllers sometimes need you to speed up so they will let you use the off-shore rule of faster than 250 below 10,000
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