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Author Topic: NORTHWEST pilots miss landing strip  (Read 21549 times)
chefnoel
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« on: October 22, 2009, 06:32:01 PM »

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/northwest-pilots-slumber-miss-landing-strip-wsj-2009-10-22


http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/22/airliner.fly.by/
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 06:34:35 PM by chefnoel » Logged
mhawke
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 09:20:30 PM »

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP

There's the flight.  NWA188 from KSAN to KMSP on Weds.   The flightpath shows it well..


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atcman23
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2009, 12:25:13 AM »

Uhh yeah... "whoops."

Chalk up two for Delta this week.
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Mark Spencer
joeyb747
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2009, 07:02:50 AM »

"The NTSB reported, that the crew told Air Traffic Control, that they had become distracted and had overflown Minneapolis and now requested to return.

The FAA reported, that according to post flight interviews the crew had engaged in a heated debate over airline policies and lost situational awareness."


from:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4219f00f&opt=0

Hmmm...engaged in a debate so deep that you don't hear radio calls for 80 minutes?   undecided
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Steelrman
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2009, 07:57:22 AM »

There must be nothing worse than waking up and finding your co-pilot asleep. evil
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laylow
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2009, 08:17:34 AM »

http://www.startribune.com/local/65619367.html?page=1&c=y
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atcman23
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2009, 09:50:06 AM »

"The NTSB reported, that the crew told Air Traffic Control, that they had become distracted and had overflown Minneapolis and now requested to return.

The FAA reported, that according to post flight interviews the crew had engaged in a heated debate over airline policies and lost situational awareness."


from:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4219f00f&opt=0

Hmmm...engaged in a debate so deep that you don't hear radio calls for 80 minutes?   undecided

Yeah I agree... something else happened here.  You can't be so caught up in a debate that you forget that you're flying an airplane.

Also ran across a poorly written AP article on the accident that suggested that they should have had 15 million warning signs that they were approaching the airport.  Ok, maybe not that many but they suggested that "cockpit displays, controllers trying repeatedly to reach, the city lights twinkling below" should have alerted them.  Besides controllers contacting them (you would think they would hear someone else talking to them), I don't think the "cockpit displays" would have helped much (nothing jumps out and says "APPROACHING MINNEAPOLIS") and looking outside doesn't do much good at 37,000 feet.  Besides it was night time and just because Minneapolis may look bright on the ground doesn't mean it does way up in the air.  And if it was cloudy all bets are off.  Plain and simple the pilots didn't do what they were supposed to do; they don't need 8-10 different things to tell them they are approaching their destination; they just need to pay attention.
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2009, 10:08:39 AM »

Does anyone have any audio related to this?  If so, please e-mail me at etobias@ap.org.  Thanks.
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bigguy_132
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2009, 10:20:08 AM »

I was wondering the same thing. I would like to hear the audio on this one. CNN also has an article on this now.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/23/airliner.fly.by/index.html
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capybaras
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2009, 04:17:10 PM »

If you read the tracking logs:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP/tracklog

They descend and turn back west at approx 09:16PM CDT on the 21st (2am gmt +1 day so the 22nd), so comm must have been establish right before then.

Checking the archives for tower on that date, you can hear some comms with NW 188 here:

1:00-1:30 (approach):
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0100Z.mp3
Nothing?

1:30-2:00 (approach->almost landing):
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0130Z.mp3
Bit after half way through you can hear something about 188, sounds normal.  Then 188 is talked into landing.

2:00-2:30 (approach->landing):
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0200Z.mp3
Starts talking them down around 7 miles out, 4000 ft

I dunno, I don't hear much?
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rationaljeff
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2009, 06:28:24 PM »

I downloaded the approach feed, and the tower feed, and there is nothing interesting.

I guess I could put it all together, but doesn't seem worth the effort.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2009, 06:55:21 PM »

"Officials suspect Flight 188's radio might still have been tuned to a frequency used by Denver controllers even though the plane had flown beyond their reach, said Church, the spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Union. Controllers worked throughout the incident with the pilots of other planes, asking them to try to raise Flight 188 using the Denver frequency, he said."

From:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091023/US.Northwest.Airport.Overflown/

I heard this on CNN Radio as well. Basically, they never changed frequency to Mini Center...
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Bryant Andrew
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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2009, 10:30:41 PM »

The captain probably just said you got control wake me up in an hour...and the co pilot acknowledged then he got tired and fell asleep as well....it wouldnt suprise me.
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jrsx
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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2009, 11:13:53 PM »

There must be nothing worse than waking up and finding your co-pilot asleep. evil
shocked QFT
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kyle172
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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2009, 11:34:02 PM »

Sounds to me that somewhere along the line they missed something. Wrong Frequency? Misinterpreted command from the controller? These things happen
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sykocus
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2009, 01:06:37 AM »

Sounds to me that somewhere along the line they missed something. Wrong Frequency? Misinterpreted command from the controller? These things happen

You don't fly 100 mi past your destination at your cruising altitude because you missed a frequency change or had a simple misunderstanding.
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martgenia
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WWW
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2009, 02:28:09 AM »

Do you remember Flight 522 operated by HELIOS AIRWAYS when both pilots became unconscious because faulty presurisation systems ... not a chance of happening something similar...?  undecided
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bphendri
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2009, 05:50:45 AM »

Do you remember Flight 522 operated by HELIOS AIRWAYS when both pilots became unconscious because faulty presurisation systems ... not a chance of happening something similar...?  undecided

Is there a chance?  Yes.  Is it likely / probable?  No!  Since the flight deck shares the same presurization / air supply as the cabin (Unless they where on Supplemantal 02), there would have been somebody else (Cabin crew) that would have lost conscioness too, and would have said something.

I am not sure about Airbus (If someone knows, please chime in).  but at least on the Boeing 768/744.  Once you get within about 20KM of your T/D (Top of decent.) if you have not already done so, you will get a chime, and an EICAS message, and Amber Master Caution to RESET MCP ALT.  (Which is an indication for the flight crew to enter their next lowest hard altitude in the Altitude selector on the Mode Control Panel.

How did they also miss the SELCAL chime when their company called.  The 744 also has a company option that if no buttons or radio trasmissions are made within a certain time, a warning alarm sounds, and you get a "NO CREW SLEEPING" message on the EICAS...
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joeyb747
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2009, 10:53:30 AM »

"MINNEAPOLIS — The first officer of the Northwest Airlines jet that missed its destination by 150 miles says there was no fight in the cockpit, neither he nor the captain had fallen asleep and the passengers were never in any danger.

But in an interview with The Associated Press two days after he and a colleague blew past their destination as air traffic controllers tried frantically to reach them, pilot Richard Cole would not say just what it was that led to them to forget to land Flight 188."



""We were not asleep; we were not having an argument; we were not having a fight," Cole told The Associated Press."

From:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091023/US.Northwest.Airport.Overflown/
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joeyb747
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 09:02:14 PM »

"WASHINGTON — Not sleeping, the pilots say. They were engrossed in a complicated new crew-scheduling program on their laptop computers as their plane flew past its Minneapolis landing by 150 miles — a cockpit violation of airline policy that could cost them their licenses."

From:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091026/US.Northwest.Flight.Overflown/

...wow... undecided
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Junior P
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2009, 10:01:18 PM »

wow! I cant believe they were on their laptops while flying the airplane.... thats so dangerous! If the flight attendant didnt ask about when they are expected to land, i fear the worst would have happened.
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N9IIT
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2009, 10:24:26 PM »

Just think if they were on AirTran with their new WiFi they'd be playing on Facebook and find themselves in Milwaukee before they headed back to MSP.
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jmx53
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2009, 04:01:17 AM »

Even with headphones off and not monitoring comms, wouldn't the flight crew should have heard the SELCAL chimes?

Also, the reports I have read say that national guard fighters were "being prepared"...When Paine Stewart's learjet depressurized and lost comms 10 years ago, weren't they able to scramble intercept aircraft quickly compared to this incident? 

Doesn't look like this flight crew has done their fellow pilots any favors in the arguments against big brother on the flight deck.
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adl320
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 07:54:11 PM »

Do you remember Flight 522 operated by HELIOS AIRWAYS when both pilots became unconscious because faulty presurisation systems ... not a chance of happening something similar...?  undecided

I am not sure about Airbus (If someone knows, please chime in).  but at least on the Boeing 768/744.  Once you get within about 20KM of your T/D (Top of decent.) if you have not already done so, you will get a chime, and an EICAS message, and Amber Master Caution to RESET MCP ALT.  (Which is an indication for the flight crew to enter their next lowest hard altitude in the Altitude selector on the Mode Control Panel.

Good point as I was thinking this myself. Not to spark a Boeing vs. Airbus tirade, (I actuall like Airbus), BUT if this had been on a Boeing, AND they dialed in the lower alt restriction into the MCP, the plane would have automatically started going down at the TOD. I guess though that could have brought about a whole different set of problems.

I believe in the Airbus, the FMGC does NOT indicate you've missed the TOD. It will instead say "DRAG REQUIRED" indicating you are deviating from the path. Once you are far enough off the path I believe a message like "DESCENT PATH UNACHIEVABLE"  or something to that affect appears. The plane will soldier on in HDG and ALT mode as did NWA 188.
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2009, 11:06:26 PM »

An update to this story on http://avherald.com/

"On Nov 27th the FAA released transcripts and audio recordings revealing, how air traffic control tried to raise the crew and how the crew finally reestablished contact. According to the transcripts the crew was handed off by Denver 28R/28RA to Denver Center 132.17, acknowledged the hand off at 23:57:01Z and was not heard anymore until 01:14Z, when the crew reported again at Minneapolis 13D.

An e-mail supposedly written by a friend of the captain on flight NW-188 says, that the captain had left the cockpit to use the restroom, when the first officer received the last frequency change (see Denver position 28RA) and selected a wrong frequency. He never got a reply on the new frequency, which actually was in use by Winnipeg in Canada. When the captain returned, the first officer did not report the frequency change. ATC chatter could be heard in the cockpit, so that the captain never had the idea they might not be in contact with ATC. They entered a discussion about the crew rostering and used their laptops for about 5 minutes. With a tailwind of about 100 knots they were faster than anticipated. When the flight attendant asked via interphone, when they would arrive, they checked with their navigation display, set at full range 320nm, and found themselves overhead Minneapolis, on reducing the range they identified their position at Eau Claire. Their ACARS did not have a chime, but a 30 seconds light to indicate new arriving messages. The crew had tuned 121.5 MHz, but may have turned down the volume over disturbing chatter. The captain is not trying to appoint blame to others, but to explain the events on board of the aircraft and takes full responsibility for the events."
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