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Author Topic: NORTHWEST pilots miss landing strip  (Read 15774 times)
sykocus
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2009, 01:06:37 AM »

Sounds to me that somewhere along the line they missed something. Wrong Frequency? Misinterpreted command from the controller? These things happen

You don't fly 100 mi past your destination at your cruising altitude because you missed a frequency change or had a simple misunderstanding.
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martgenia
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2009, 02:28:09 AM »

Do you remember Flight 522 operated by HELIOS AIRWAYS when both pilots became unconscious because faulty presurisation systems ... not a chance of happening something similar...?  undecided
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bphendri
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2009, 05:50:45 AM »

Do you remember Flight 522 operated by HELIOS AIRWAYS when both pilots became unconscious because faulty presurisation systems ... not a chance of happening something similar...?  undecided

Is there a chance?  Yes.  Is it likely / probable?  No!  Since the flight deck shares the same presurization / air supply as the cabin (Unless they where on Supplemantal 02), there would have been somebody else (Cabin crew) that would have lost conscioness too, and would have said something.

I am not sure about Airbus (If someone knows, please chime in).  but at least on the Boeing 768/744.  Once you get within about 20KM of your T/D (Top of decent.) if you have not already done so, you will get a chime, and an EICAS message, and Amber Master Caution to RESET MCP ALT.  (Which is an indication for the flight crew to enter their next lowest hard altitude in the Altitude selector on the Mode Control Panel.

How did they also miss the SELCAL chime when their company called.  The 744 also has a company option that if no buttons or radio trasmissions are made within a certain time, a warning alarm sounds, and you get a "NO CREW SLEEPING" message on the EICAS...
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joeyb747
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2009, 10:53:30 AM »

"MINNEAPOLIS — The first officer of the Northwest Airlines jet that missed its destination by 150 miles says there was no fight in the cockpit, neither he nor the captain had fallen asleep and the passengers were never in any danger.

But in an interview with The Associated Press two days after he and a colleague blew past their destination as air traffic controllers tried frantically to reach them, pilot Richard Cole would not say just what it was that led to them to forget to land Flight 188."



""We were not asleep; we were not having an argument; we were not having a fight," Cole told The Associated Press."

From:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091023/US.Northwest.Airport.Overflown/
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joeyb747
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 09:02:14 PM »

"WASHINGTON — Not sleeping, the pilots say. They were engrossed in a complicated new crew-scheduling program on their laptop computers as their plane flew past its Minneapolis landing by 150 miles — a cockpit violation of airline policy that could cost them their licenses."

From:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091026/US.Northwest.Flight.Overflown/

...wow... undecided
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Junior P
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2009, 10:01:18 PM »

wow! I cant believe they were on their laptops while flying the airplane.... thats so dangerous! If the flight attendant didnt ask about when they are expected to land, i fear the worst would have happened.
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N9IIT
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2009, 10:24:26 PM »

Just think if they were on AirTran with their new WiFi they'd be playing on Facebook and find themselves in Milwaukee before they headed back to MSP.
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jmx53
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2009, 04:01:17 AM »

Even with headphones off and not monitoring comms, wouldn't the flight crew should have heard the SELCAL chimes?

Also, the reports I have read say that national guard fighters were "being prepared"...When Paine Stewart's learjet depressurized and lost comms 10 years ago, weren't they able to scramble intercept aircraft quickly compared to this incident? 

Doesn't look like this flight crew has done their fellow pilots any favors in the arguments against big brother on the flight deck.
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adl320
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 07:54:11 PM »

Do you remember Flight 522 operated by HELIOS AIRWAYS when both pilots became unconscious because faulty presurisation systems ... not a chance of happening something similar...?  undecided

I am not sure about Airbus (If someone knows, please chime in).  but at least on the Boeing 768/744.  Once you get within about 20KM of your T/D (Top of decent.) if you have not already done so, you will get a chime, and an EICAS message, and Amber Master Caution to RESET MCP ALT.  (Which is an indication for the flight crew to enter their next lowest hard altitude in the Altitude selector on the Mode Control Panel.

Good point as I was thinking this myself. Not to spark a Boeing vs. Airbus tirade, (I actuall like Airbus), BUT if this had been on a Boeing, AND they dialed in the lower alt restriction into the MCP, the plane would have automatically started going down at the TOD. I guess though that could have brought about a whole different set of problems.

I believe in the Airbus, the FMGC does NOT indicate you've missed the TOD. It will instead say "DRAG REQUIRED" indicating you are deviating from the path. Once you are far enough off the path I believe a message like "DESCENT PATH UNACHIEVABLE"  or something to that affect appears. The plane will soldier on in HDG and ALT mode as did NWA 188.
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2009, 11:06:26 PM »

An update to this story on http://avherald.com/

"On Nov 27th the FAA released transcripts and audio recordings revealing, how air traffic control tried to raise the crew and how the crew finally reestablished contact. According to the transcripts the crew was handed off by Denver 28R/28RA to Denver Center 132.17, acknowledged the hand off at 23:57:01Z and was not heard anymore until 01:14Z, when the crew reported again at Minneapolis 13D.

An e-mail supposedly written by a friend of the captain on flight NW-188 says, that the captain had left the cockpit to use the restroom, when the first officer received the last frequency change (see Denver position 28RA) and selected a wrong frequency. He never got a reply on the new frequency, which actually was in use by Winnipeg in Canada. When the captain returned, the first officer did not report the frequency change. ATC chatter could be heard in the cockpit, so that the captain never had the idea they might not be in contact with ATC. They entered a discussion about the crew rostering and used their laptops for about 5 minutes. With a tailwind of about 100 knots they were faster than anticipated. When the flight attendant asked via interphone, when they would arrive, they checked with their navigation display, set at full range 320nm, and found themselves overhead Minneapolis, on reducing the range they identified their position at Eau Claire. Their ACARS did not have a chime, but a 30 seconds light to indicate new arriving messages. The crew had tuned 121.5 MHz, but may have turned down the volume over disturbing chatter. The captain is not trying to appoint blame to others, but to explain the events on board of the aircraft and takes full responsibility for the events."
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bphendri
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2009, 05:53:29 PM »


[/quote]



Good point as I was thinking this myself. Not to spark a Boeing vs. Airbus tirade, (I actuall like Airbus), BUT if this had been on a Boeing, AND they dialed in the lower alt restriction into the MCP, the plane would have automatically started going down at the TOD. I guess though that could have brought about a whole different set of problems.




Not entirely correct.  Even with a lower ALT in on the the MCP.  The A/P will not begin a descent even at TOD on it's own..

On the 763, The FMC will disengage VNAV and enter ALT HOLD, and will not climb or descend unless V/S is activated and changed, or VNAV button is pressed again, OR FLCH is pressed.

On the 744, The ALT INTERVENE button must be pressed, OR FLCH mode engaged, OR V/S mode is selected.

I am NOT sure if different companys can have different configurations though.

See the Boeing engineers are not as stupid as you think Smiley
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 05:55:10 PM by bphendri » Logged
mhawke
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2009, 07:37:23 PM »

An update to this story on http://avherald.com/

An e-mail supposedly written by a friend of the captain on flight NW-188 says......."

Sorry but I don't buy it.  That doesn't explain being out of contact for 1 Hr and 17 minutes, there is still more to the story.
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otto_pilot
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2009, 11:13:17 PM »

Its sad. All I can say is wow I no I am way late on this but I was trying to not post on this one. Seriously these guys hurt the industry more then shown at first glance. People now think all pilots do stuff like this. Its crap, and they should have no licences period. Well looks like big brother will be in the flight deck by the time I make it the airlines in a few years.
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tower: right delta ground point niner
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joeyb747
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2009, 07:57:23 PM »

"WASHINGTON — The Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis have blamed air traffic controllers in part for the incident, saying controllers violated procedures."

"FAA officials have said controllers repeatedly tried unsuccessfully to contact Northwest Flight 188 as it flew from San Diego across a broad swath of the continent. They've also said there were several shift changes during that time in which controllers going off duty who had handled the plane didn't inform controllers coming on duty that the plane was out of radio contact."

From:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091207/US.Northwest.Flight.Overflown/
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sykocus
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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2009, 08:17:33 PM »

"WASHINGTON — The Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis have blamed air traffic controllers in part for the incident, saying controllers violated procedures."

"FAA officials have said controllers repeatedly tried unsuccessfully to contact Northwest Flight 188 as it flew from San Diego across a broad swath of the continent. They've also said there were several shift changes during that time in which controllers going off duty who had handled the plane didn't inform controllers coming on duty that the plane was out of radio contact."

From:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091207/US.Northwest.Flight.Overflown/

They were MIA for well over an hour during which time controller tried numerous ways to contact them. Even if controllers didn't do everything perfect the pilots have to carry the responsibility for doing their job of flying the plane (which they didn't do). I know they're fighting an uphill battle for their jobs, but that still sounds pretty weak.
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