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| | |-+  Now that the BUF thread has been locked...
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Author Topic: Now that the BUF thread has been locked...  (Read 19806 times)
smoak
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« on: February 16, 2009, 09:17:50 PM »

Can those members that wish to contribute their thoughts and ideas as more information becomes available please post here or in a new thread.  I have been checking in and out of here every couple of hours and have found the information here (until a recent poster took this into tin foil hat land).

Please keep the info coming.  This has been one of the most informative site I have seen on this and the US Air water landing.
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theweave
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 06:37:49 AM »

Does anyone know why the Colgan Crash Thread was locked??? I too was reading it multiple times a day and even asked a question and had it answered quickly and very well written!

This site is the best... please don't lock threads on major news stories like this!

Explanation? Could you unlock it?

Thanks
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Jason
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 07:01:18 AM »

Does anyone know why the Colgan Crash Thread was locked??? I too was reading it multiple times a day and even asked a question and had it answered quickly and very well written!

This site is the best... please don't lock threads on major news stories like this!

Explanation? Could you unlock it?

Thanks


Please read the last post. The last few pages also sum up why we locked it. This by no means restricts anyone from starting a new thread, like this one.

Jason
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iskyfly
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 08:06:30 AM »

Does anyone know why the Colgan Crash Thread was locked???
moderator power trip?
i'm sure they have the ability to remove the offending posts in a thread, rather than locking it.
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dave
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 09:12:21 AM »

The only reason it was locked: certain posters were getting quite surly and rude.  That is not the kind of environment I like to maintain - and other forum members like to frequent.  Other aviation forums allow it - I have been very clear about not allowing it.  There is a sticky posting on the Listener Forum about it, so this is not new.

I could ban certain members, but I am not sure that is always the right approach.  Either way, none of this would be an issue if people would learn to be civil to each other, regardless of someone's lack of knowledge or apparent ignorance.

It's much easier to flame people than to be civil.  Try to be civil to each other - life is too short to not be.

Dave

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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 10:02:24 AM »

Just a thought that this thread should probably be moved to the "Listener Forum" board.    For those who don't know, the ATC/Aviation Audio Clips board should be reserved for subjects with clips attached.
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Regards, Peter
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bibi
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 11:07:33 AM »



"Using the date from the black box, federal authorities released this animation of Continental airline's flight pattern 10 seconds before the crash in Buffalo,NY."

Source LiveLeak

(no responsibility is taken for the correctness - just found it at LL and thought i should share)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 11:11:34 AM by bibi » Logged
iskyfly
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 11:12:20 AM »

federal authorities released this animation
really? already?
i think it is a 3rd party animation based on information released.
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bibi
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 11:14:55 AM »

Sorry, i just quoted their headline.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 11:26:19 AM »

federal authorities released this animation
really? already?
i think it is a 3rd party animation based on information released.


LOL... the non-English language video narration might be the first tip-off.  Smiley
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
bibi
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 11:45:48 AM »

yeah because stations in latin america or spain will transmit everything in english, rather than dubbing it into their own language rolleyes rolleyes
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 12:28:12 PM »

yeah because stations in latin america or spain will transmit everything in english, rather than dubbing it into their own language rolleyes rolleyes

Your sarcasm aside, my point was this:  As this appears to be the first time this particular animation of a US-based accident has appeared, the fact that it has a non-English narration indicates pretty hilariously and obviously that this is not an OFFICIAL NTSB animation. 
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
joeyb747
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 06:40:24 PM »

I have two thoughts on what may have happened.

First: Say the aircraft is laden with ice from the approach. Control extension (flaps) caused a section of ice to come off, upsetting the balance, sending the plane into a spin. On high-wing airplanes, ice will still build up behind the boots. The ATR was famous for it. Remember the Eagle ATR that crashed in Roselawn IN while on approach to ORD? Same style of airplane.  And, oddly, the tail section was the only section left intact in that one as well.  Eerily similar.

Second: The NTSB released a statment that they were "looking into the possibility of structural failure." Say the main wing spar failed, but the wing did not depart the aircraft. that would send it into a spin as well.

Lets keep in mind the airplane was facing away from the airport. I find thawt to be strangest of all. That tells me the airplane went into a spin and fell straight down onto her belly.
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thejackal37
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 02:10:46 AM »

I am very new to this sight and find the information and topics to be very interesting. I don't understand why the Buffalo thread was locked. I work midnights and have been checking in regularly since the evening of the 3407 crash. Alot of the stuff is very technical, but I find myself drawn to the sight anyway. As far as posters being nasty or condescending, they should remember that most people are not experts  on this subject and may make comments or ask questions that seem silly but the will never learn if they don't ask. I will make a donation at weeks end to help defray costs. Thanks for all the effort on the site.
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iskyfly
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 08:01:01 AM »

Could it have been as simple as an incorrect reaction to a stall warning?
Remember, a stall warning warns of an imminent stall such that you should have time to take action to prevent it from happening.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123492905826906821.html?mod=djemalertNEWS

Quote
Pilot Action May Have Led to Crash
Investigators examining last week's Continental Connection plane crash have gathered evidence that pilot commands -- not a buildup of ice on the wings and tail -- likely initiated the fatal dive of the twin-engine Bombardier Q400 into a neighborhood six miles short of the Buffalo, N.Y., airport, according to people familiar with the situation.

The commuter plane slowed to an unsafe speed as it approached the airport, causing an automatic stall warning, these people said. The pilot pulled back sharply on the plane's controls and added power instead of following the proper procedure of pushing forward to lower the plane's nose to regain speed, they said. He held the controls there, locking the airplane into a deadly stall, they added.

........

According to people familiar with the investigation, Capt. Marvin Renslow, 47 years old, who lived outside Tampa, Fla., was at the controls of Flight 3407. The safety board said Mr. Renslow was relatively new to the Q400, which he began flying only in December, when he upgraded from another type of airplane. First Officer Rebecca Lynne Shaw, 24, of Seattle, had accumulated 774 hours in the 74-seat aircraft.

The recovered flight data described in detail how the crew of Continental Flight 3407 handled the emergency, the people said.

During the flight from Newark, Mr. Renslow and Ms. Shaw noticed ice building up on the windshield and wings of the airplane after they had already activated the craft's de-icing system, which inflates a series of rubber bladders on the leading edge of the wings and tail surfaces to break up accumulated ice.

According to the plane's flight recorders, Flight 3407's descent into Buffalo was routine until roughly a minute before impact, when the crew lowered the landing gear, followed by the command to extend the wing flaps, which enable the plane to fly at slower speeds.

Almost immediately, these people say, the plane's air speed slowed rapidly, causing a stall-warning device known as a "stick-shaker" to cause the pilots' control column to vibrate. This was followed by a "stick-pusher," which automatically forces the stick forward.

At this point, the captain appears to have pulled back with enough force to overpower the stick-pusher and shoved the throttles to full power, according to people familiar with the matter. Safety board officials said the nose pitched up to a 31-degree angle. Already at a dangerously low speed, the wings immediately stopped generating lift. The plane whipped to the left and then entered a steep right turn, losing 800 feet of altitude in less than five seconds. At one point the right wing was perpendicular to the ground, according to information taken from the flight data recorder.

The pilots continued to fight with the controls almost all the way to the ground, and in the final moments, "it appeared that they were beginning to make headway when they ran out of altitude," said one person who looked at the data.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 08:02:57 AM by iskyfly » Logged
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