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Author Topic: Now that the BUF thread has been locked...  (Read 22132 times)
joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 08:25:49 AM »

Thanks for that post iflysky. very good information! Puts new light on the whole thing. Thanks agian!
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iskyfly
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 08:28:28 AM »

my pleasure!
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dan9125
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WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 03:30:02 PM »

A lot of inbounds to KBUF reporting moderate ice this afternoon. Actually I have been hearing it most of the day.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 04:34:12 PM »

A lot of inbounds to KBUF reporting moderate ice this afternoon. Actually I have been hearing it most of the day.

NOAA's icing threat is depicting a high volume of super-cooled liquid droplets present flanking Buffalo (as indicated by the red cross-hatching on this map).  SLD is what makes clear ice, the nastier of the two:



Also, all those black "U" shaped icons with lines off the bottom are approximate positions of icing PIREPS as reported by many aircraft.   The varying degrees of blue shading indicate trace up to moderate icing present at some altitude in those areas (I was looking at the MAX map, not a specific altitude).
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
napper505
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75 th anniversary


« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 07:21:57 PM »

Hey   cool

Interesting news today regarding the pilots reaction to the stick pusher.

He was able to overpower it with the elevator.

btw. q400 has powered elevator with no trim tabs.

you can see it here last image of this vid  I found

http://www.q400.com/q400/ssi/q400_video.jsp?video=q400_01&langue=en


cheers  cool

Napper505


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tuned to cyyz
cessna157
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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2009, 08:19:04 PM »

Hey   cool

Interesting news today regarding the pilots reaction to the stick pusher.

He was able to overpower it with the elevator.


That's normal, as part of the design.  It can be overpowered with enough force, as well as the autopilot.  It can also be temporarily disconnected with a button that is on the yoke.
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
napper505
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75 th anniversary


« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2009, 09:25:52 PM »

Hey  cool


Here is another very informative news article with graphics

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/02/13/nyregion/Buffalo-Crash.html

p.s

At  (cyyz) this evening there were several reports of  light icing.. It is snowing here below the

flight approach to yyz

Cheers
napper505:)
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tuned to cyyz
kea001
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2009, 04:55:41 PM »

Airline issued navigation alert to pilots before Buffalo crash

Southwest Airlines warned its pilots just weeks before the crash of a commuter flight in Buffalo about safety issues with so-called instrument approaches at the airport. The warning concerned runway 23, the same runway the crashed commuter plane was lined up to use.

The alert, reissued Wednesday by the airline's pilot association, warned Southwest pilots there was a "potentially significant hazard" concerning the instrument landing system's glide slope guidance signal for runway 23.

The airline advised, "Pilots who are preparing to configure and land have the potential to experience abrupt pitch up, slow airspeed, and approach to stall if conditions present themselves in a certain manner."


full article here:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/19/buffalo.crash.ils/index.html


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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2009, 06:07:29 PM »

That is some pretty stagering info kea001. I find that very interesting. Sounds exactly like what happened to 3407. Thanks for that post.
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kea001
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2009, 06:26:08 PM »

That is some pretty stagering info kea001. I find that very interesting. Sounds exactly like what happened to 3407. Thanks for that post.

Well if you read the article there seems to be a qualification, namely that the Southwest approach to that runway is usually from the north whereas the Colgan approach was from the south. Unfortunately, it fails to develop this thought.

I would think it prudent not to draw too many conclusions from any one development and remember that these accidents occur as a result of multiple factors, not just one thing.



« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 06:27:53 PM by kea001 » Logged
joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2009, 06:41:13 PM »

Exactly right. Its still very good information. Somthing else to toss into the mix you know?
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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2009, 06:49:09 PM »

I can see how this would cause a stall thou. Im not familure with the -8 and its autopilot system. If the glideslope was deflected, and now the airplane thinks its "up there" and tries to go to it, and if the autothrottle (if equipped) is not engaged, the airplane pitches up, 31 deg, without power being added...stall.

But like you said, an accident is a series of smaller events. We just need to figure out what those are.
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kea001
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« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2009, 08:23:26 PM »

SInce I posted that, the following has been added to the article:


The National Transportation Safety Board told CNN the agency was "aware" of the Southwest Airlines alert, but would not comment further.

The issue is caused by a geographic feature at the airport, a valley, "something we can't do anything about," said FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown. She said the "altitude reading makes it look like you're a lot higher than you are, because there is a valley there."

The feature has been noted on FAA charts for years, she said.

"As far as we can tell, there is no way this had any role in the accident," Brown told CNN.

"It's not a navigation aid that would have applied to the approach."

The alert from Southwest Airlines advises pilots that the problem could cause the planes navigational system to interpret data "in such a way as to result in a nose-up pitch and loss of airspeed."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/19/buffalo.crash.ils/index.html

Quote
"It's not a navigation aid that would have applied to the approach."

I think what this means is the plane probably didn't even make it to the land formation (valley) where this might have been an issue.

This article explains it a bit further:

Southwest pilots union warns of Buffalo approach hazard
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/02/20/322868/southwest-pilots-union-warns-of-buffalo-approach-hazard.html
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 04:13:37 PM by kea001 » Logged
joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2009, 05:32:58 PM »

So they are thinking 3407 crashed outside the interfiered with are of the approach? Sound very similar to what was stated in the report.

"in such a way as to result in a nose-up pitch and loss of airspeed."

Colgan pitched to 31 deg nose up.

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iskyfly
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2009, 08:22:19 AM »

and if the autothrottle (if equipped)
It is not.

Here is a quote from a MD80 and 737 pilot;
http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2054&start=150#p27072

Quote
Regarding the KBUF ILS 23 warning....this is not a new issue and has been known about. The problem comes when joining from the right (or west) side when the plane captures the G/S prior to the LOC. Colgan was joining from the left side and like many planes, the automation is such that the G/S cannot be captured prior to the LOC being captured. The 737, which SWA flies is one aircraft that I know can capture G/S prior to the LOC being captured.

While eye catching and eerily similar sounding, I think this is a red herring.
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