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Author Topic: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control  (Read 23019 times)
cessna157
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« on: September 07, 2008, 12:55:12 PM »

Been doing quite a lot of NY flying the other day and I heard several examples of NY controllers doing whatever they want, not being polite and professional, all knowing they will never be punished for their actions.

Was taxiing out of JFK the other day, they were on single runway departure ops, and they had an odd taxi flow going.  A JBU pilot asked the tower what their sequence was for their planning purposes (whether or not to shut down engine(s), update passengers on progress, etc.  Keep in mind, if a JBU is confused at the JFK flow, then it must be odd, as they are regulars there.  Tower's reply was "You should know better than to ask me that question.  Don't you know my voice?  I don't answer stupid questions like that.  Never ask me that."  It was a completely uncalled for remark.  As aircraft, we are the customers to the air traffic controllers, even the controllers will tell you that.  There is absolutely no reason to have such a harsh answer and completely avoid the question.  It wasn't as if it were busy.  This controller was just working 1 runway departures.

Then, after taxiing for 2 hours and finally getting airborne, I heard an N90 controller give an aircraft a clearance to a point that wasn't on his flight plan.  The aircraft quiered the controller about the clearance to get another fix that was on his FP.  The controller said something like "I don't care, just go direct Sparta anyway" which is an illegal clearance.  The aircraft then said that they could not do that without further instructions on where to go after that point. The controller ignored the request (again, it wasn't that busy).  The aircraft asked about the routing again, and the controller said "well then you shouldn't have filed that route then should you."  The aircraft (it was a larger charter outfit) said "Sir, I didn't file the flight plan, you're talking to the wrong person here, now what do you want me to do?"  The controllers response was "I want you to fly the airplane like I tell you to" and then finished up with "That is how we do it here in the New York airspace."

Anyone that knows the slightest bit about the NAS knows that the last statement could not be any more incorrect.  There are FAA procedures, not just unwritten procedures special for New York.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2008, 01:59:37 PM »

The aircraft (it was a larger charter outfit) said "Sir, I didn't file the flight plan, you're talking to the wrong person here, now what do you want me to do?"  The controllers response was "I want you to fly the airplane like I tell you to" and then finished up with "That is how we do it here in the New York airspace."

I am not a professional like you all are but what about simply answering, "Unable," to the illegal clearance?

edit:  Oh, and I am in full agreement with you that their tone is completely unnecessary and bordering on unsafe if it went down as you describe.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 02:01:11 PM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
glencar
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2008, 03:18:40 PM »

Well, that wasn't me working that day. I'm not quite sure what day this was but it doesn't seem like there's any excuse for that sort of behavior.
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cessna157
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2008, 09:25:38 PM »


I am not a professional like you all are but what about simply answering, "Unable," to the illegal clearance?

That's an option, but it wasn't that he was unable to fly there, he just needed a specific instruction.  If there is a point that is not on your route, you must be cleared to that point then receive further instructions.  What happens when you get to that fix and do not hear anything else from ATC?  You're in a bit of lala land there.  Its kind of like some arrival routes around the country that end at a certain fix and the instructions are to expect vectors to the final approach course.  Except as you're flying along and reach that point, you don't get anything else from ATC. 

When it comes to the NY airspace subject, it would be a little more expected if that were the case nationwide.  But it seems that it is just a localized problem, except for the ORD ground problem which someone mentioned a few weeks ago.
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2008, 11:54:47 PM »

You've gotta' be talking about Captain Havoc...

He's surly, sarcastic and as you've said, rude and unprofessional, and gives us New Yorkers a bad name  cheesy.I was listening to JFK last night and he unloaded on some poor jetblue guy for shutting down one of his engines when "He wasn't told to do that".

Shortly after that the "Good Flight, Great Day" guy took over.
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eastern tristar
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2008, 12:09:07 PM »

I also heard the JetBlue pilot get unloaded on and couldn't believe it.  I heard him ask a question only to be told "you weren't paying attention to what I said already and then he said, "shut it down, your not going anywhere now"  I later heard the controller say, "no one ask me anything, I don't want to hear anyone on the radio"  He sounded totally stressed out but if this type of situation is to much for him, maybe he should be working a post that is less stressful.  This was Saturday afternoon when they were dealing with the rain and wind from tropical storm Hannah but I have been listening during worse weather (massive thunderstorms during the weekday evening rush a few weeks ago) and no one was losing their cool like this.  I don't know if this is the same guy, but I think it was Friday night when I heard a controller say "I don't do numbers" when I pilot ask where they were in line to take off.  I agree, this kind of attitude gives New Yorkers a bad rep.
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soffs
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 10:34:14 AM »

Indeed, sounds bad. After all, hardly any pilot contacts the ATC unless they really need advice, help, etc. I would believe, as a mere passenger, that pilots ask questions only to make sure that things run smoothly and that traffic runs safely, not to annoy the ATCs.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 10:48:26 AM »

What happens when you get to that fix and do not hear anything else from ATC?  You're in a bit of lala land there.

If I were cleared to a fix that was not in my IFR flightplan I would be querying ATC long before arriving there as to what to do beyond that point.

Coincidentally I heard this scenario happen last Monday while flying down to White Plains.  A pilot checked in and stated that he was previously cleared to a point that was not on the flight plan.  The controller (I believe it was Boston Center in airspace somewhere over the Catskills) was quick to recognize the problem and excellent in getting the aircraft back onto his filed route.

It is very discouraging to hear stories like the JetBlue being told to shut down as if it were some type of kindergarten "time-out" for asking a legitimate question.  Talk about an abuse of power by an out-of-control controller.  

Normally I am all for the controller's plight against the FAA but something like this doesn't make compassionate friends on the yoke side of the mike.  IMO a supervisor should have stepped in and relieved the controller.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
laylow
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 05:32:09 PM »

Any one have clips of these incidents?
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djmodifyd
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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 08:30:12 PM »

wow..that is HORRIBLE

they are just going to run off pilots....which is not very good job security
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dave
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2008, 03:46:08 AM »

they are just going to run off pilots....which is not very good job security

How does that work?  Neither one of them (controller or pilot) has much of a choice about being there.  smiley
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Glavata
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2008, 03:24:41 AM »

The pilot should have said "And don't you know my voice? You don't reply to me that way, now what is my sequence" hehe... Indeed truly unprofessional though.

PS. Anyway we can get these transmissions if they were recorded here ?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 03:26:35 AM by Glavata » Logged

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jdfmoc
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2008, 06:24:46 AM »

In response to the N90 controller. Before you leave the airport and you get your clearance you should have to route. I have heard pilots complain about a route, saying it was not stating when clearly it was stated earlier they weren't listening. When you file a route especially in the direction of the northeast, if the route not exactly correct (according to the center) the fdio will kick out what is known as a plus routing. A plus routing is the preferred route. Depending on what he filed it cold be completely different. I had a plus routing kick out the other day and sent a guy 100 miles northwest before allowing him to go the direction he wanted to go which was southest. All it took was an amendment to his altitude and off he went southeast. So not uncommon for the N90 controller to clear that, happens all over the NAS.

The controller at Kennedy, that JFK what can i say. They are just rude their oh well...  Would not hurt my feelings if less aircraft flew in there, they have to many as it is already
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bogman
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2008, 09:53:41 AM »

Why doesn't anyone report these "BULLIES"  if they wanted to report you they wouldn't even think twice about it.

As Cessna said the airlines are the customers and the customer is always right ........If you know what I mean.


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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2008, 11:27:56 AM »

Why doesn't anyone report these "BULLIES"  if they wanted to report you they wouldn't even think twice about it.

From my vantage point it's not worth the time or the energy unless there was a safety of flight issue as a result of a controller's tirade.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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