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Author Topic: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control  (Read 22229 times)
ishtar
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2008, 02:09:00 PM »

"As Cessna said the airlines are the customers..."

The airlines are not the customers.  angry
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cessna157
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2008, 02:59:34 PM »

Well you can't just say that without a statement of opinion backing your viewpoint.

Do tell, why aren't the airlines, charters, fractionals, corporates, and GA flyers the customers?  And, if that's the case, who is?
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
ishtar
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 03:34:17 PM »

Aviation Safety Enhancement Act of 2008. Passed through the House by roll call vote (392-0-42). Awaiting action by the Senate.

Quote
(b) Modification of Initiative- Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall modify the customer service initiative, mission and vision statements, and other statements of policy of the Agency--

      (1) to remove any reference to air carriers or other entities regulated by the Agency as 'customers';
      (2) to clarify that in regulating safety the only customers of the Agency are individuals traveling on aircraft; and
      (3) to clarify that air carriers and other entities regulated by the Agency do not have the right to select the employees of the Agency who will inspect their operations.

(c) Safety Priority- In carrying out the Administrator's responsibilities, the Administrator shall ensure that safety is given a higher priority than preventing the dissatisfaction of an air carrier or other entity regulated by the Agency with an employee of the Agency.
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tyketto
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 03:37:42 PM »

Aviation Safety Enhancement Act of 2008. Passed through the House by roll call vote (392-0-42). Awaiting action by the Senate.

Wow.. I wonder who wasn't present? IIRC, there are still 435 seats in the House of Representatives. I assume 392 voted yes, 0 voted no, 42 abstained? That's 434. Who missed out (not that it matters)?

BL.
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cessna157
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 07:31:03 PM »

Ha, oh come on.  That wording is legaleze stemmed from the buddy system the examiners were having with some of the airlines.

I'm not saying it's an official designation or anything.  What I was trying to indicate was that, in the service industry (which I would include ATC as), there is always a customer.  I do disagree with bogman in saying "the customer is always right."  Yes yes, I know, its our job to make them think they're always right.  But when you have some moronic passenger who says "You're lying about New York being on a ground stop due to weather, I just talked to my friend's cousin's mother's husband's sister's former roommate and they said it was bring and sunny out.

What I'm saying is the controllers are providing a service, and we, the aircraft commanders, are the customers.
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 08:23:59 PM »

What I'm saying is the controllers are providing a service, and we, the aircraft commanders, are the customers.

I get what you're saying... pilots are not literal, paying customers, but they are direct receivers of the air traffic control service...
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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2008, 11:59:20 AM »

I do disagree with bogman in saying "the customer is always right." 


What I'm saying is the controllers are providing a service, and we, the aircraft commanders, are the customers.

My phrasing was all wrong there ,sorry about that ,but Cessna you just cleared up what I was trying to say.What would happen to you if you turned around to a passanger and told him/her what to do and where to go.

You would be FIRED and I don't think these BULLISH controllers should be let get away with it.If a request is put in by a pilot like the guy from Jetblue,he should be treated with some respect,if there is a problem explain it, not jump down your neck over it.That is what you would do as a professional pilot...OK in your own mind you can call them every name on the sun,but you still have to be professional.

That is just my thought on the subject, why should they get away with it "Put them in there place now". Ask yourself if that was you who was the Jetblue pilot what would you do?.....and be honest with yourself.

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ishtar
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2008, 04:46:49 PM »

What I'm saying is the controllers are providing a service, and we, the aircraft commanders, are the customers.

I disagree. If you were operating under part 91, I would agree with you. But I read your comment as a pilot operating under part 121 or part 135, and am forced to disagree. The true customers are sitting behind you. It is because of them that there is a need for the FAA and ATC. They have all agreed to go from point A to point B, and they are expecting to get there as fast, cheap, and safely as possible. The fastest and cheapest way to get from point A to point B is direct. By its very nature, ATC services makes air travel slower and more expensive, but in doing so makes it safer.

I'm not in the aviation business (just a private pilot); I'm in the education business. I've witnessed the effects of running the education system as a business and treating the students as consumers. It doesn't work. Oh, the students say it works just fine. They all get their As and get pushed out the door with their degrees, but not actually learning anything.

The US national airspace system is a lot like the US education system. They both do provide a service. However, in both cases, it is not the service that a business would undertake. [Removed rant about the state of education in the US; you don't want to read that] In the case of ATC, their job is to provide safety. In a business-sense, their service is to waste the money of their "customers". If the airlines are treated as customers, then the service they provide (safety) may be compromised. But in compromising safety, it will be more profitable to both the airlines and the FAA, which presents a huge conflict of interest.

I'm not saying that the controller was right or wrong in this case - just commenting on treating airlines as customers.
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drFinal
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2008, 06:55:47 AM »

The men and women that comprise the workforce of 'NY Air Traffic Control' are some of the finest controllers and people I have ever had the pleasure to know.

We controllers take pride in the job we do to get you and your passengers to your destinations 'safely, orderly, and expeditiously.' We always strive to do our best despite hundreds of veteran controllers retiring and hundreds more resigning leaving our work force decimated and exhausted.

We constantly worked short staffed with record traffic increases all summer. We don't come on this board and complain every time a pilot makes a mistake we just deal with the aftermath in the few seconds we have--for in the end air traffic controllers tell pilots where to go.

That my friends is professionalism.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 09:01:34 AM by drFinal » Logged

Air traffic controllers tell pilots where to go.
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2008, 09:02:21 AM »

We don't come on this board and complain every time a pilot makes a mistake we just deal with the aftermath in the few seconds we have--for in the end air traffic controllers tell pilots where to go.

Personally I would enjoy reading more pilot mistakes, as it provides a learning experience for the rest of us and also serves to knock down the level of arrogance sometimes displayed by pilots of all levels.   You should have seen the discussion here and in other pilot forums surrounding one pilot's very poor attempt to arrive at Oshkosh back in 2006.

There is no argument from me against the fact that the number of bonehead pilot moves far outweighs mistakes made on the controllers' side.   Overall, you controllers have my sincerest respect for continuing to perform at such a high level given your ever-declining work conditions.   Perhaps it is this consistently high professionalism that makes the occasional slip so discussion-worthy?

edit:  Oh, and I'll be the first to admit that I have made my share of mistakes and at least two resulted in a justified chewing out by the controller.  Happily there was no LiveATC feed at the time or at least one of them would have ended up in the clips forum here.  smiley   
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 09:10:14 AM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

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camrnlendy
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2008, 12:32:31 PM »

I think the mistakes some of the pilots are making at JFK are downright scary.  We are not talking readback errors either...  One airline in particular who is a RJ based feeder airline for a JFK major is notorious amongst ATCs in their constant and daily errors in the air and on the ground. 

Some of the low time and inexperienced pilots at this particular airline would be very embarassed if we posted these stories online.  In fact, it would unprofessional and improper to post anything that degrades the airline pilot profession.  I just wish others on this board would be a little more considerate when posting about the "errors" of ATC's on this forum, especially if those people are considering leaving their airline job and applying to the FAA to become a controller....

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dave
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2008, 12:33:55 PM »

I think the mistakes some of the pilots are making at JFK are downright scary.  We are not talking readback errors either...  One airline in particular who is a RJ based feeder airline for a JFK major is notorious amongst ATCs in their constant and daily errors in the air and on the ground. 

Some of the low time and inexperienced pilots at this particular airline would be very embarassed if we posted these stories online.  In fact, it would unprofessional and improper to post anything that degrades the airline pilot profession.  I just wish others on this board would be a little more considerate when posting about the "errors" of ATC's on this forum, especially if those people are considering leaving their airline job and applying to the FAA to become a controller....

Amen.
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cessna157
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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2008, 08:57:02 PM »

The thread has actually taken a little bit of a turn away from topic.  Hopefully this can steer it back a little closer. 

Hopefully, we can all agree that we're all human (if we don't agree on that, we might need to rethink this through here).  Humans all make mistakes.  Its called human nature.  Nobody is perfect (although some would refute that point).  But we're all on the same side when it comes to protecting each other. 

Just the other day I heard a controller give a clearance for an aircraft to stop its climb at FL250 due to head-on traffic at FL260.  The aircraft clearly read back that he'd stop his climb at FL260, except the controller caught it.  I asked my capt if he heard that and he said "you might want to say something."  So I just keyed my mic and said "center, he just read back the wrong altitude."  Center came back and repeated the instruction and the other aircraft corrected himself and admitted he heard the original clearance wrong.  Center said "thanks for whoever caught that, it wouldn't have been good."

Okay, so after I said the thread is getting off topic, I drive it off even further.   My bad.

Originally my post was not intended to point out somebody's mistakes.  It was an observation that there are a few controllers, ironically both in the NYC area, that don't seem to be playing well with the other kids.
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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2008, 10:31:53 PM »

I believe that it is getting like this at a lot of airports nowadays, controllers not wanting to do their jobs. I recently flew an LSA to Mannassas Regional, which is inside the DC ADIZ (for nonpilots, this is THE most restricted airspace in the US, if not the world). They were giving us grief because they were unfamiliar with our type of aircraft while we were waiting for our transponder code to enter the ADIZ. We filed a flight plan and they are holding us up wanting to know unnecessary information about our plane. I would have expected better out of federal employees, especially in that airspace.

To add to the JFK situation, I have heard the same guy you are talking about many times doing very unprofessional things. One time, when he got mad because he had a Jetblue 2745 and a Jetblue 2547, he decided to declare NORDO on the ground frequency of one of the busiest airports in the world. This is absolutely ridiculous.

I am only a private pilot, so I don't have to talk to ATC much, but to all of the IFR pilots out there in the JFK area... you have my sympathy.
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dave
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2008, 11:17:09 PM »

You know, I don't doubt some of the pilot stories on here, but I have to say that as many times as I have flown in New York airspace, Boston airspace, Philly airspace, and many other places, I have yet to run into a rude controller.  Whether I was IFR or VFR, I just never had a bad experience.  Granted, I don't have as many hours as some of the jet drivers on here, but still.  It all sort of feels like some really frustrated folks on both ends of a straining system.

Still, part of the pilot/controller "relationship" is how you approach it as a pilot.  If you know what you're doing (or don't and just admit it) and you approach the conversation in a positive way, and adjust your requests and tone in a positive way, you get a better result.  Just like any other relationship in life.

Whether you're a controller or a pilot, leave the holier-than-thou attitude at home and we'll all get along a lot better and accomplish what we're all there for - getting home safe and alive, and as quickly as the system allows.

-dave
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