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Author Topic: NY air traffic controllers are getting out of control  (Read 30682 times)
camrnlendy
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2008, 12:32:31 PM »

I think the mistakes some of the pilots are making at JFK are downright scary.  We are not talking readback errors either...  One airline in particular who is a RJ based feeder airline for a JFK major is notorious amongst ATCs in their constant and daily errors in the air and on the ground. 

Some of the low time and inexperienced pilots at this particular airline would be very embarassed if we posted these stories online.  In fact, it would unprofessional and improper to post anything that degrades the airline pilot profession.  I just wish others on this board would be a little more considerate when posting about the "errors" of ATC's on this forum, especially if those people are considering leaving their airline job and applying to the FAA to become a controller....

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dave
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2008, 12:33:55 PM »

I think the mistakes some of the pilots are making at JFK are downright scary.  We are not talking readback errors either...  One airline in particular who is a RJ based feeder airline for a JFK major is notorious amongst ATCs in their constant and daily errors in the air and on the ground. 

Some of the low time and inexperienced pilots at this particular airline would be very embarassed if we posted these stories online.  In fact, it would unprofessional and improper to post anything that degrades the airline pilot profession.  I just wish others on this board would be a little more considerate when posting about the "errors" of ATC's on this forum, especially if those people are considering leaving their airline job and applying to the FAA to become a controller....

Amen.
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cessna157
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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2008, 08:57:02 PM »

The thread has actually taken a little bit of a turn away from topic.  Hopefully this can steer it back a little closer. 

Hopefully, we can all agree that we're all human (if we don't agree on that, we might need to rethink this through here).  Humans all make mistakes.  Its called human nature.  Nobody is perfect (although some would refute that point).  But we're all on the same side when it comes to protecting each other. 

Just the other day I heard a controller give a clearance for an aircraft to stop its climb at FL250 due to head-on traffic at FL260.  The aircraft clearly read back that he'd stop his climb at FL260, except the controller caught it.  I asked my capt if he heard that and he said "you might want to say something."  So I just keyed my mic and said "center, he just read back the wrong altitude."  Center came back and repeated the instruction and the other aircraft corrected himself and admitted he heard the original clearance wrong.  Center said "thanks for whoever caught that, it wouldn't have been good."

Okay, so after I said the thread is getting off topic, I drive it off even further.   My bad.

Originally my post was not intended to point out somebody's mistakes.  It was an observation that there are a few controllers, ironically both in the NYC area, that don't seem to be playing well with the other kids.
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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2008, 10:31:53 PM »

I believe that it is getting like this at a lot of airports nowadays, controllers not wanting to do their jobs. I recently flew an LSA to Mannassas Regional, which is inside the DC ADIZ (for nonpilots, this is THE most restricted airspace in the US, if not the world). They were giving us grief because they were unfamiliar with our type of aircraft while we were waiting for our transponder code to enter the ADIZ. We filed a flight plan and they are holding us up wanting to know unnecessary information about our plane. I would have expected better out of federal employees, especially in that airspace.

To add to the JFK situation, I have heard the same guy you are talking about many times doing very unprofessional things. One time, when he got mad because he had a Jetblue 2745 and a Jetblue 2547, he decided to declare NORDO on the ground frequency of one of the busiest airports in the world. This is absolutely ridiculous.

I am only a private pilot, so I don't have to talk to ATC much, but to all of the IFR pilots out there in the JFK area... you have my sympathy.
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dave
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2008, 11:17:09 PM »

You know, I don't doubt some of the pilot stories on here, but I have to say that as many times as I have flown in New York airspace, Boston airspace, Philly airspace, and many other places, I have yet to run into a rude controller.  Whether I was IFR or VFR, I just never had a bad experience.  Granted, I don't have as many hours as some of the jet drivers on here, but still.  It all sort of feels like some really frustrated folks on both ends of a straining system.

Still, part of the pilot/controller "relationship" is how you approach it as a pilot.  If you know what you're doing (or don't and just admit it) and you approach the conversation in a positive way, and adjust your requests and tone in a positive way, you get a better result.  Just like any other relationship in life.

Whether you're a controller or a pilot, leave the holier-than-thou attitude at home and we'll all get along a lot better and accomplish what we're all there for - getting home safe and alive, and as quickly as the system allows.

-dave
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Jason
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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2008, 07:50:40 AM »

You know, I don't doubt some of the pilot stories on here, but I have to say that as many times as I have flown in New York airspace, Boston airspace, Philly airspace, and many other places, I have yet to run into a rude controller.  Whether I was IFR or VFR, I just never had a bad experience.  Granted, I don't have as many hours as some of the jet drivers on here, but still.  It all sort of feels like some really frustrated folks on both ends of a straining system.

Still, part of the pilot/controller "relationship" is how you approach it as a pilot.  If you know what you're doing (or don't and just admit it) and you approach the conversation in a positive way, and adjust your requests and tone in a positive way, you get a better result.  Just like any other relationship in life.

Whether you're a controller or a pilot, leave the holier-than-thou attitude at home and we'll all get along a lot better and accomplish what we're all there for - getting home safe and alive, and as quickly as the system allows.

-dave

I have run into plenty of rude controllers, but I normally laugh whenever they give me or someone else on the frequency an attitude.  I call it the stereotypical NY attitude in the cockpit.  Reality is you get a handoff a few minutes later anyway (at least in New York) so one cranky controller shouldn't really have much effect on you.  If you're looking for a shortcut and the controller won't give it to you, try the next one.  It's all about being respectful on both sides of the mic, whether or not it's reciprocal.  The more frustrated you get, the worse you are in the end.  I instill great trust in our controllers and I hope they see the same in us.  If you throw some humor into the mix, things lighten up a bit.

Safe flying...

Best,
Jason
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 07:52:21 AM by Jason » Logged
drfinal
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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2008, 02:20:23 PM »

Quote from Jason..."I have run into plenty of rude controllers, but I normally laugh whenever they give me or someone else on the frequency an attitude.  I call it the stereotypical NY attitude in the cockpit.  Reality is you get a handoff a few minutes later anyway (at least in New York) so one cranky controller shouldn't really have much effect on you.  If you're looking for a shortcut and the controller won't give it to you, try the next one. "

I know you most likely didn't mean it to come out like this--seems like you're telling us a controller with an rude attitude is one who won't give you a shortcut.

Shortcuts although nice for the pilot/ passengers and just as nice for us controllers because they get you up and out quickly so we can move more traffic through our airspace are not always possible depending on how much of a shortcut you're looking for. There are many factors involved including traffic volume, the next controllers traffic volume, weather and so on...

I'm always happy to work on a shortcut for a pilot whether he asks me or not if it helps me and or the next controller and or it helps the pilot.

So with that said the other day when I was pretty busy and you asked for direct point x and I said, "Unable." Was it the fact that I said "Unable" that made me rude or was it my urgent tone...?

Because when I'm busy I always like to use an urgent tone on the freq--for some reason everyone listens better and responds vigilantly and except for the somewhat more frequent pilot that jumps in with both feet on his/ her initial contact and blocks me or a read back I rarely have to repeat instructions. I get a lot of "nice jobs" from pilots too.

Which leads me to believe that you may just be a little sensitive because maybe a couple of times you or some other pilot on freq got chewed out by a controller for a mistake (however small) that was made. Or maybe the controller was already in a bad mood because he got his a$$ handed to him on staggered 22's for 2 hours and just took it out on you or someone else which really wouldn't have been very nice of him at all but I know after a 2 hour session on any staggered config. I'm not in a very good mood either although I won't take it out on anyone on freq (but I'll say something under my breath when I un-key--which gets a few chuckles from my coworkers in the immediate vicinity and lightens the mood.)

The tone I've been getting from this thread is that some of you think all or most of us NY controllers are rude--which couldn't be further from the truth. We have our grouches as I'm sure you pilots do but for the most part we just want to come to work, do our jobs, and go home to our families.



« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 03:19:03 PM by drFinal » Logged
Jason
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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2008, 03:18:23 PM »

I know you most likely didn't mean it to come out like this--seems like you're telling us a controller with an rude attitude is one who won't give you a shortcut

Nope, that's a false inference that you were able to make quite a few paragraphs out of.  I'm not even saying anything remotely close to that -- controllers that won't give shortcuts aren't always rude, in fact the majority of them are so nice that they try their best to get one for you as soon as possible, or coordinate with the next sector prior a change of communication so the next controller is aware and looking out for any possible shortcuts.

What I'm trying to say is that there are a cranky controllers out there, we all have bad days.  That said, there are plenty of cranky pilots, too.  I fly the NY airspace so often I am accustomed to the various tones of each controller, in fact it's comforting to hear an attitude on the frequency sometimes after a long trip out west (you literally get to hear that you're home).

Believe me, I am so appreciative of our NY controllers.  They do an amazing job and always provide excellent service, and I truly mean that.  I enjoy coming down to the TRACON and thanking them as often as I can.  They make my job look simple most days.

Best,
Jason
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drfinal
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2008, 03:22:02 PM »

Well okay then--that's nice to hear.

And if you hadn't guessed--I like to write a little in my spare time.

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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2008, 03:24:20 PM »

So with that said the other day when I was pretty busy and you asked for direct point x and I said, "Unable." Was it the fact that I said "Unable" that made me rude or was it my urgent tone...?

My only thought when receiving an "unable" after a request is that there is some good reason why it cannot be granted.  If the controller is too busy to provide a courtesy reason for the "unable" soon enough I will usually hear it (crossing traffic, hand-off to another sector, etc.).  

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Regards, Peter
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2008, 08:18:58 AM »

Whether you're a controller or a pilot, leave the holier-than-thou attitude at home and we'll all get along a lot better and accomplish what we're all there for - getting home safe and alive, and as quickly as the system allows.
Indeed. I'm only a mere passenger here (I only know how to ride a bicycle), but the point in any traffic is, you're not alone there.
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glencar
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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2008, 04:17:01 PM »



To add to the JFK situation, I have heard the same guy you are talking about many times doing very unprofessional things. One time, when he got mad because he had a Jetblue 2745 and a Jetblue 2547, he decided to declare NORDO on the ground frequency of one of the busiest airports in the world. This is absolutely ridiculous.

I am only a private pilot, so I don't have to talk to ATC much, but to all of the IFR pilots out there in the JFK area... you have my sympathy.
Can you provide a tape of this alleged incident? If this really happened, it's unacceptable.

To any controllers in the DC area who have to deal with vicecitydriver, you ahve my sincere sympathies.
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drfinal
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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2008, 06:56:03 PM »

Can you provide a tape of this alleged incident? If this really happened, it's unacceptable.



I think I found the mole.
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cessna157
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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2008, 07:46:17 PM »

Mole?  Like Mole Sauce?  Yuck!    grin
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« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2008, 11:37:17 PM »

I brought my NY attitude down south, and when im back up north, ill still have it and will use it.
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camrnlendy
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« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2008, 11:48:27 AM »

dr.final, yes i think you are right...it seems that errr ahhh wants to hear replays...you have located the mole!
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cessna157
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« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2008, 06:34:18 PM »

I would just like to say that I flew into N90 today and had quite a pleasant experience.  Even had a last-minute request that the controller happily accomodated and changed his arrival flow a little to assist us.
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drfinal
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« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2008, 06:48:18 PM »

See--we're not all rude ogres.   cheesy
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cessna157
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« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2008, 06:59:26 PM »

Heh heh, yes, my point exactly.  Trying to win you guys some brownie points here.

Controller scratched my back, and I (we) returned the favor a couple mins later.  It all works out in the end.
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drfinal
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« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2008, 08:24:08 PM »

It all works out in the end.

That brings back memories--about 8 years ago a friend of mine is training this guy and he welds a couple but at the least second gets visual--barely. The he says to my friend, "I don't see what you're getting so upset about--it all worked out in the end."

Now every once in a while we blurt that out--or others funnies from over the years.

Here's another of my favorites:

"N12345 how are you navigating today?"

"Very well thank you."
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mk
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« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2008, 09:18:18 PM »

i heard a good one from a senior controller at work today:

i had heard it before on the internet but i found the true source...

back in the old days Piedmont was a major airline with a considerable hub at BWI.  Jets go the left side (33L), and props on the right (33R).   well,  this controller was sequencing a C130 with a few Shorts.  controller says, "baxter53, reduce speed to 110kts, following shorts traffic 4 miles ahead."  C130 pilot comes back, "what do you think the stall speed is in this thing?"  to which my fellow controller's trainer says, "i dunno, but i bet your co-pilot knows"   grin


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« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2008, 03:40:16 PM »

Low and slow baby! C-130s rock!  Especially those HC-130s out of KFOK. *cough* *cough*  smiley
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glencar
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« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2008, 04:35:04 PM »

dr.final, yes i think you are right...it seems that errr ahhh wants to hear replays...you have located the mole!
Yo yo yo, I am just doubtful that the alleged incident happened. And if indeed it did happen, what was the context? I spoketh the Lord's name in vain last night & I could see someone excitedly running here to say how I was mixing church & state but I certainly had my reasons!
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cessna157
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« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2008, 03:20:26 PM »

I fly into/out of JFK tonight.  Don't know what time, as our plane is delayed inbnd from JFK to where I start my day.   You guys gonna be nice to me?  I promise to be on my best behavior
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« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2008, 03:52:14 PM »

I fly into/out of JFK tonight.  Don't know what time, as our plane is delayed inbnd from JFK to where I start my day.   You guys gonna be nice to me?  I promise to be on my best behavior

<tongue-in-cheek>
Sure! But ask me a question, and I'll shut you down!  grin
</tongue-in-cheek>

BL.
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