Phraseology Question

[tyketto]

Question about phraseology that Tower used on Sunday (18 Nov 2007), guys.

First, some background.

Airport Diagram of KLAS

I was listening to the Las Vegas Tower feed on Sunday afternoon/evening. For reasons known only to Tower, runways 19L/R and 7L/R were in use (Landing runways 19L/R and 7R, departing runways 19L/R and 7L at A8). Winds were calm at that time, so unless some operatioal issue required the 7s, I don't know why they didn't use calm wind runways. But that's another question for another time.

For a couple of departures who had crossed the 19s from Signature and one SWA jet, Tower had explicitly given the call

"N12345, Las Vegas Tower, access the runway at Delta, runway 7L at Alpha 8, position and hold."

What this did was told the departure to taxi onto 7L at Delta, then taxi down 7L to A8, and hold there for their takeoff clearance.

What I am wondering is, is that ("access the runway at Delta") proper phraseology? I know in particular he had the SWA jet (who was taxiing westbound just past A7 on Bravo) to report the preceding jet in its takeoff roll in sight (a B757), so it could be part of creating the separation for wake turbulence, but still, there is no mention about that certain phrasing in the .65.

You'll hear it in the 0000z - 0130z archives.

BL.

[binky]

Sounds like an instruction issued using plain language which the controller is expecting the aircraft will fully understand.  I am not familiar with the U.S. regulations/phraseology but in Canada taxi instructions would be given something to the effect of "taxi Delta, to position runway 07L at Delta 8" or "at Delta taxi onto runway 07L and hold abeam Delta 8".  I highly doubt "access" is approved phraseology.

[tyketto]

Sounds like an instruction issued using plain language which the controller is expecting the aircraft will fully understand.  I am not familiar with the U.S. regulations/phraseology but in Canada taxi instructions would be given something to the effect of "taxi Delta, to position runway 07L at Delta 8" or "at Delta taxi onto runway 07L and hold abeam Delta 8".  I highly doubt "access" is approved phraseology.

You're right. 'access' definitely isn't proper phraseology as listed in the .65, but this entire scenario happened more than once; the controller also used 'use Delta'.

I guess my big thing is that even with intersection departures, I have never seen a case where Tower wanted the pilot to use one intersection to enter the runway, then taxi down to another taxiway, and hold there for takeoff clearance.

BL.

[mhawke]

I think they do this at KLAS (enter at Delta for 7L then position and hold at A8) because of the power runup point on the runway between Delta and A8.  That would insure the plane is past power up point prior to starting takeoff roll, while getting them on runway and ready to go promptly when given clearance.

If they used A8 as the access point, it could get congested since A8 is also the end of runway entrance to 7R.  Probably makes traffic management easier to use D to access 7L (just a guess of a non controller).

Granted none of this explains the phrases used, however, I have heard other airports tell a plane to access the runway at xxx.

[rpd]

Did the pilots understand the instructions?  If so, mission accomplished.  Sometimes plain language is the best way to go.  If you are busy, you don't have time for pilot questions and issuing instructions 2 or 3 times.

That is my opinion and I am sure FAA phraseology Nazis will disagree.

[tyketto]

Did the pilots understand the instructions?  If so, mission accomplished.  Sometimes plain language is the best way to go.  If you are busy, you don't have time for pilot questions and issuing instructions 2 or 3 times.

That is my opinion and I am sure FAA phraseology Nazis will disagree.

Oh, the pilot definitely understood what the controller was saying, but if it came down to legalities and the tapes were pulled, there would be no saving grace for the controller; also, if a supervisor was on, he probably would have been dinged for it.

BL.

[rpd]

I am sure there was a supervisor on duty.  In the FAA they are more concerned with what color your socks are or what shoes you are wearing.  You are giving them too much credit for knowing phraseology.