Author Topic: question for american pilots  (Read 7462 times)

Offline Canadian eh

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question for american pilots
« on: April 09, 2008, 12:41:22 PM »
maybe one of you pilots can explain this to me. last night i was controling and it was about 11p.m. local time so thunderbay terminal and tower was closed. i'm a low controler working from fl280 and down, when we take thunderbay airspace we provide terminal service also. fyi, i got very little training on terminal control (12 simulator runs of about 45 min each) and company says we can't run terminal standards, aka the min sep i can use is 5 miles and 1000'. had a american last night handed off to me from msp 25. the plane was msp > cyqt, a inbound track of around 050-060, 55nm sw of cyqt. runway 7 was the active and on checkin i cleared him direct feset planning on clearing him for a straight in ILS runway 07 approach via present postion direct feset. he tell me he's going to need vectors. rwy heading is 074, direct feset puts him on a heading of around 035. he's got a direct routing that takes him to a fix on the ILS. any canadian pilot would have taken the approach via direct feset yet this american pilot didn't think he could. when he asked for a vector i gave him "identXXX your 5 miles south of the loc, fly present heading to intercept". Is there something that they do in the states that we don't in canada that i don't know about?

heres a link to the cap chart so you can see where feset is and what i'm talking about http://www.realworldatc.com/tracon/regions/can//charts/CYQT.pdf



Offline bcrosby

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Re: question for american pilots
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2008, 01:09:37 PM »
Skip,

If you don't get your answer here, you can try the ATS forum at www.avcaanda.ca/forums2/

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: question for american pilots
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2008, 01:57:46 PM »
For some reason I cannot pull up the approach you linked (getting a "problem loading page" error at the moment), but I will assume FESET is an IAF or IF on the ILS approach?

If so, I won't comment from airline pilot experience but as an active US IFR GA pilot I receive "Direct To" clearances to the IAF/IF along ILS approaches all the time.  I am not aware of any regulation here in the States preventing IFR aircraft, GA or part 121, from going direct to a fix along an approach, assuming that aircraft is properly/legally equipped with DIRECT-TO navigation devices.

However, if for some reason my active GPS flight plan (the source of navigation in my aircraft) does not contain that approach/fix/waypoint (and it does happen) I will respond to this clearance with a  request for a vector to get me pointed in the right direction while I add that fix/waypoint/approach and instruct the GPS to fly direct to that point.  Once direct via the GPS I quickly call back and inform the controller that I am now direct to the point given in his initial clearance.


Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: question for american pilots
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2008, 02:01:08 PM »
To clarify the reason for asking for a vector, my assumption here is that the controller wants me going in that direction the moment the clearance was issued and would prefer I am tracking in the general direction immediately, even if it means getting an initial vector to start me off.

Fumbling with the GPS all the while knowing the controller is waiting for me to turn in the right direction seems to take an eternity otherwise.  :)

Offline tyketto

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Re: question for american pilots
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2008, 02:45:32 PM »
I'll throw this into the mix.

What we don't know is the type of equipment being used on the aircraft. For example, if the pilot was in a plane that was /A (VOR with DME), going direct to a fix may not be feasible, and would require getting vectors.

Do you happen to know or was it listed on the flight strip available to you the type of equipment the plane had?

BL.

Offline Canadian eh

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Re: question for american pilots
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2008, 03:06:10 PM »
sorry should have gave you guys a little more info. it's a daily sched flight, so you'd think he'd know the drill. mind you the pilot came back to me the first time with a say that fix again. i give it to him again and then spelled it so maybe he's new. feset is the IAF fix. to open the link you need adobe reader.
talking about thinking i wanted him to start the turn now, i don't think so cause after i spelled it for him there was a long pause and he said, alright we are direct feset now but might need a vector for final.
on another topic of american pilots. lots of times a pilot will be inbound to a airport and we will step him down cause of traffic. normally when this happens we are busy enough that guys are holding so it turns into a one in one out. since thats the case we clear guys like this "TZX cleared to the dryden airport for a approach". i can't run any sorta arr/dep standard and so i'll give him a approach so he can do which ever one he wants, in hopes he breaks out and doesn't have to fly a full app so things will move along faster. then i  get a read back and then "contact radio now 122.1". about 30% of the time radio calls and says "TZX is looking for lower" ?????? you got a approach, thats your clearance for lower. so as a work around we just say "atc clears TZX to desend below (whatever was the last assigned alt.) at pilots discretion" and then he starts his approach. why's he doing this? is he not aware of the procedures in candian airspace?

Offline Canadian eh

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Re: question for american pilots
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2008, 03:14:01 PM »
yeah sorry he was filed /gd, which is dme and gnss(gps), here's a list of them cause i can only assume they are the same in the states

The COM/NAV/SSR equipment on board and its serviceability must be inserted by adding the appropriate
suffixes. The first suffixes will denote the COM/NAV equipment, followed by an oblique stroke, and
another suffix to denote the SSR equipment:
(a) COM/NAV Equipment
INSERT one letter as follows:
N if no COM/NAV/approach aid equipment for the route to be flown is carried, or the
equipment is unserviceable, or
S if standard COM/NAV/approach aid equipment for the route to be flown is available and
serviceable (see Note1)
AND/OR INSERT one or more of the following letters to indicate the COM/NAV/approach aid
equipment available and serviceable:
A…(Not allocated) I INS R RNP type certification (Note 4)
B (Not allocated) J Data Link (Note 3) T TACAN
C LORAN C K MLS U UHF
D DME L ILS V VHF
E (Not allocated) M (Not allocated) W RVSM certification
F ADF O VOR X MNPS certification
G GNSS (Note 5) P (Not allocated) Y CMNPS certification
H HF RTF Q (Not allocated) Z Other equipment carried (Note 2)

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: question for american pilots
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2008, 03:31:41 PM »
sorry should have gave you guys a little more info. it's a daily sched flight, so you'd think he'd know the drill. mind you the pilot came back to me the first time with a say that fix again. i give it to him again and then spelled it so maybe he's new. feset is the IAF fix.

Daily flight does not necessarily equal daily pilot.  Could have been someone relatively "low time" to that particular airport, given how airline schedules are delegated to pilots.  Also, asking for you to say the fix again implies to me that this pilot was not familiar, nor had the fix set up in his "box" (FMS or GPS, although admittedly I do not know what setting up an FMS entails), or had the fix in the box as part of the approach but was not familiar enough with the approach to recognize it.

to open the link you need adobe reader.

Adobe???  Bah, no likey that software.  I prefer Foxit Reader as it is much faster to open. :)   In any regard, the link is now working on its own.

talking about thinking i wanted him to start the turn now, i don't think so cause after i spelled it for him there was a long pause and he said, alright we are direct feset now but might need a vector for final.

That's weird.  No idea how to offer an explanation for that.

Quote
on another topic of american pilots. (snip)

Yep, a clearance for an approach is a clearance to begin descending as per the chart, unless some crossing restriction is given.  Are these airline pilots or smaller aircraft GA pilots?  My guess would be the latter, as my brethren is not always as proficient as they should be with procedures.

Furthermore, when I am flying into an uncontrolled airport, I will request the specific approach I want to fly when I check into the final approach facility.  Not only that, but I will also try to pick an approach that does not require a procedure turn and  request direct to the IAF on that approach if GPS or vectors to final approach if not.  (This assumes the approach is in radar coverage, of course - otherwise the full approach it must be.)


Offline Canadian eh

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Re: question for american pilots
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2008, 02:39:18 AM »
pretty much all are sunday flyers. for the most part they are rich guys flying out to there cabins. don't know if it matters but this happens at controlled airports.