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Author Topic: Re: Condition of ATC  (Read 9037 times)
ogogog
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« on: March 06, 2007, 09:23:12 PM »

New here, I am a controller at Yuma just down te road from you guys. The saddest thing to me is that the FAA believes they can replace all of the retireing contollers with new bodies and it will go off without a hitch. Upper management has no idea about the nature of the job. I did 4 years in the Air Force, currently 2 years in the DOD as a civilian and will not go to the FAA due to the current state of "affairs". It has been my dream to test myself with the toughest traffic such as PHX but I wont do it until they get things right. Good luck to you and thanks for your service.

Shep

the FAA did it in 1981,they probely think that thay can do it again. only time will tell.
This is the part where myself and a number of others here feel useless.  undecided

There are a number of people who do control in the virtual world, using the same procedures as you do in the towers, TRACONs, RAPCONs, and Centers, that would love to be in your position right now. In fact, there are some who have controlled in the virtual world, used that for training purposes, and actually have a head start at the training academy in OKC!

If it weren't for a couple of outstanding circumstances, I and a couple of others would be one of them. The hire age limit really throws a spanner in the works for everyone, and while I can say I'm rather very proficient with ATC, as I've passed that limit, I no longer qualify to be hired. That limit is one major thing that holds a lot of people back, making it even tougher than it already is for you.

You don't know how many times I'd had loved to step foot into L30 TRACON and start working the skies.. but alas...

BL.

dont mean to be a dick about this but playing atc on the web and the real job are not the same,and it goes beyond whats in the 7110 or how many simulated a/c you think your working.

OG
ATCS/C90
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davys747
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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2007, 10:21:10 PM »

Quote
dont mean to be a dick about this but playing atc on the web and the real job are not the same,and it goes beyond whats in the 7110 or how many simulated a/c you think your working.

OG
ATCS/C90

I think you will find that Brad is fully aware of the differences between real life and VATSIM, as do the rest of us. So you don't need to talk down to us about it.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 10:24:25 PM by davys747 » Logged

David Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2007, 10:31:35 PM »

wow you guys are depressing me... I heard it was bad down there, but I didn't realize it was this bad...

Ogogog, what is the POINT of making a comment like that... usually anything that starts with the comment "don't mean to be a dick" means you're about to be one by saying what you're about to say... this is not a sight for ATCs but also ATC enthusiasts... I think we would all agree that this is not the right forum for us to be making fun of each other...

But back to the topic... all of the previous posts were from down across the border... can anyone cheer me up and let me know if it's this bad up in canada? I'm a controller in the navy thinking of switching to nav canada (waiting on the results of the application process), is it worth switching (and taking a possible pay cut for a few years) or should I just stick to my military job (even if it means eventually not being able to control anymore, unless of course I switch to the Air Force).
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tyketto
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2007, 01:05:07 PM »

New here, I am a controller at Yuma just down te road from you guys. The saddest thing to me is that the FAA believes they can replace all of the retireing contollers with new bodies and it will go off without a hitch. Upper management has no idea about the nature of the job. I did 4 years in the Air Force, currently 2 years in the DOD as a civilian and will not go to the FAA due to the current state of "affairs". It has been my dream to test myself with the toughest traffic such as PHX but I wont do it until they get things right. Good luck to you and thanks for your service.

Shep

the FAA did it in 1981,they probely think that thay can do it again. only time will tell.
This is the part where myself and a number of others here feel useless.  undecided

There are a number of people who do control in the virtual world, using the same procedures as you do in the towers, TRACONs, RAPCONs, and Centers, that would love to be in your position right now. In fact, there are some who have controlled in the virtual world, used that for training purposes, and actually have a head start at the training academy in OKC!

If it weren't for a couple of outstanding circumstances, I and a couple of others would be one of them. The hire age limit really throws a spanner in the works for everyone, and while I can say I'm rather very proficient with ATC, as I've passed that limit, I no longer qualify to be hired. That limit is one major thing that holds a lot of people back, making it even tougher than it already is for you.

You don't know how many times I'd had loved to step foot into L30 TRACON and start working the skies.. but alas...

BL.

dont mean to be a dick about this but playing atc on the web and the real job are not the same,and it goes beyond whats in the 7110 or how many simulated a/c you think your working.

OG
ATCS/C90

I never said they were the same. But I also said that you can, at the very least, pick up the basics of what needs to be done in the real job, following the .65, and get a good grasp on the basics of what to do in the real world. Like using a live motion simulator for training to be a pilot.

Of course, simulation is never the real world, but it doesn't mean that you can use it to learn principles that can be APPLIED to the real world.

BL.
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tyketto
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2007, 03:16:21 PM »


dont mean to be a dick about this but playing atc on the web and the real job are not the same,and it goes beyond whats in the 7110 or how many simulated a/c you think your working.

OG
ATCS/C90

I never said they were the same. But I also said that you can, at the very least, pick up the basics of what needs to be done in the real job, following the .65, and get a good grasp on the basics of what to do in the real world. Like using a live motion simulator for training to be a pilot.

Of course, simulation is never the real world, but it doesn't mean that you can use it to learn principles that can be APPLIED to the real world.

BL.


And just to add on to this, there is a friend of mine who was just hired off the street for ZLA Center. He's currently at the Air Traffic Facility in OKC (nice place, btw). He's already well ahead of the other people who were hired off the street, in terms of phraseology, general SOPs and concepts of ATC, because he studied the material, and applied it in virtual networks such as VATSIM. It also doesn't help that such a network also has real world controllers on there training people in what they do, as well as pilot schools such as ERAU, UND, UNO, and the like doing the same for pilots.

No, this doesn't make them certified in any means for doing this in the real world, but it does give them advantage over people who come in knowing nothing, because they already have those general principles down, if not beaten into their brain from step 1.

Think about it this way. If you were 25 or 26 or so, and starting in this career field nowadays, and have some environment available for you to practice in, would you take the time practice what you would be learning and build on it, or remain green until you have all of it dumped on you at once?

Think about an answer to that, while I leave you with a well-known quote:

Foreknowledge is forewarned and forearmed. -Sun Tsu

BL.
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ogogog
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 04:35:33 AM »


dont mean to be a dick about this but playing atc on the web and the real job are not the same,and it goes beyond whats in the 7110 or how many simulated a/c you think your working.

OG
ATCS/C90

I never said they were the same. But I also said that you can, at the very least, pick up the basics of what needs to be done in the real job, following the .65, and get a good grasp on the basics of what to do in the real world. Like using a live motion simulator for training to be a pilot.

Of course, simulation is never the real world, but it doesn't mean that you can use it to learn principles that can be APPLIED to the real world.

BL.


And just to add on to this, there is a friend of mine who was just hired off the street for ZLA Center. He's currently at the Air Traffic Facility in OKC (nice place, btw). He's already well ahead of the other people who were hired off the street, in terms of phraseology, general SOPs and concepts of ATC, because he studied the material, and applied it in virtual networks such as VATSIM. It also doesn't help that such a network also has real world controllers on there training people in what they do, as well as pilot schools such as ERAU, UND, UNO, and the like doing the same for pilots.

No, this doesn't make them certified in any means for doing this in the real world, but it does give them advantage over people who come in knowing nothing, because they already have those general principles down, if not beaten into their brain from step 1.

Think about it this way. If you were 25 or 26 or so, and starting in this career field nowadays, and have some environment available for you to practice in, would you take the time practice what you would be learning and build on it, or remain green until you have all of it dumped on you at once?

Think about an answer to that, while I leave you with a well-known quote:

Foreknowledge is forewarned and forearmed. -Sun Tsu

BL.


vatsim is a game that may or may not help you in OKC.what is taught in OKC isnt real atc. the first thing we tell new people from OKC is forget everything they taught . real ATC is learned on real traffic  from real controller who work that airspace not on a computer game. their is no way you can convince me  that this will help and iam comming from 27 years of control tower, enroute and tracon time.iva also trained quite a few folks in my time .we just had our first 3 trainees wash out in the lab 2 had military atc and one was a beaver cti who had more training than you vatsim friends.

OG
ATCS/C90
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sierra yankee
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 01:10:06 PM »

Sierra Yankee, I tried sending you a private message today but i'm not sure if it worked because there's no record of it anywhere... if you got it let me know... got some more questions for you regarding canadian side of the house

Got it, and replied.

As far as the whole VATSIM thing, as someone who started out controlling online and then transitioned to the real world, I believe that done correctly and with an understanding of its limitations, it can be helpful.  In Canada, prospective controllers are hired by a headhunting firm whose personnel aren't controllers and don't have any real knowledge of ATC.  Having some interest in and knowledge of the job is a big plus, so that made my interview quite a bit easier.  Who knows, I might not have been selected in the first place without the knowledge and experience I had from VATSIM.  Once training started, I found that most of my classmates were starting with no aviation knowledge whatsoever, so they were having to learn all the basic vocabulary in addition to the actual ATC concepts and techniques that were being taught.  Already knowing just basic stuff like what a flight level was, what an altimeter was, how to read a METAR, classes of airspace etc. allowed me more time to focus on the stuff that was new to me (things like stripmarking and passing estimates which aren't done on VATSIM) so I was able to stay on top of the course material a bit more easily.

In the USA up until recently I doubt this would have been as much of an advantage since everyone had to take the CTI course, which would obviously teach all the basics and more, so someone with VATSIM experience wouldn't necessarily know any more than someone without it.  As the FAA begins to hire people off the street, perhaps this will become more relevant.

I do agree that in the end it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference in terms of success rates.  The people without experience have to study harder but they catch up -- most of them, anyway.  At a certain point the overriding factor becomes aptitude for the job -- some people can do it, some can't -- and it's quite possible to acquire quite a bit of aviation knowledge (whether by being a pilot, or through VATSIM, or some other means) but still not have the aptitude.  Likewise it's possible to come in knowing nothing but end up being a rock star, because some people just have the innate ability to see and think in 3-D, quickly solve the conflictions etc. and so they have no problem doing the job.  Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any easily identifiable factor that will tell you whether the new trainee off the street will, after a year or so of training, actually be able to do the job or not.  That's why in Canada our street-to-license rate for new IFR trainees is still around 35% even though we've been trying to raise it for years.  If it were as simple as finding people with aviation experience or VATSIM experience, I'm quite sure NavCan would be trolling the VATSIM messageboards recruiting like crazy, because they don't like having trainees wash out any more than the trainees like washing out.

Anyway, I just thought I'd offer some sort of middle ground here since the topic was up for debate.  If it takes somebody who actually works real-world traffic saying there's value in VATSIM for that opinion to be taken seriously, then I'm more than willing to say it.  Personally I hate hearing RW controllers (many of whom have never seen the network -- it's hard to evaluate something you have no knowledge of) reflexively trash VATSIM just because it "isn't real."  Neither are the PC "simulators" (I use that word reluctantly) that NavCan uses for the generic course (first 3 months of training), and I'll tell you what, if those "sims" could be one-tenth as realistic as the controller clients on VATSIM, the trainees would be much better off.  They remind me more of the old ATCC game for DOS, vintage 1995 or so.  There's nothing wrong with saying that VATSIM doesn't have the complexity or challenge of real-world controlling;  I don't think you'd get too many arguments from most of the network people on that score.  (Although I've worked real-world traffic during holding, emergencies, etc., and simulator runs in our labs that go to 110-130% of real-world traffic, and I still don't know if I've ever been as far down the shitter in those situations as I have during some of the VATSIM events!  That obviously doesn't mean that VATSIM's more complicated than the real world, it's really just another network limitation -- you get far too many pilots and adjacent controllers who don't know anything at all and that makes it impossible to work traffic effectively even if you're the best controller in the world.  Still, it can get surprisingly busy online.)  But saying that there's no way that VATSIM can be anything like the real world in any possible way is just stupid.  For sure there are limitations and I'm no fanboy for the network at all -- personally I stopped controlling there mostly because the network doesn't mandate any training for pilots (unlike controllers who, as in the real world, often require months or even years of instruction before getting fully checked out) and therefore you get way too many 12-year-olds jumping into 747s and filing LAX-JFK "GPS DIRECT" at 6,000 feet, and assorted other garbage that makes it not fun anymore.  If there was enough of a collective will to change things -- unfortunately there isn't -- it could become quite a bit more realistic to the point where it would be an effective training tool for real-world piloting as well as ATC.

Still, I can see why RW controllers get defensive or laugh about it, because on the other side you do get the VATSIMmers who think that because they've worked 500 hours online they could just walk into NY TRACON, sit right down and start vectoring to final like it's nothing.  I've seen posts on here and elsewhere where somebody who actually works in a given facility explains a technique or procedure and some dumdum starts telling him that that can't be right because he heard something else on a scanner/saw it on VATSIM/flew it in Flight Sim etc..  That's pretty annoying.  I would love to take some of those guys into one of my sectors, sit them down and say "have at it buddy" and start a betting pool as to how long it would take before they were in tears.

But there aren't too many of those, really.  The majority of the VATSIM controllers (like those posting in this thread, a few of whom I happen to know personally and can vouch for) have nothing but respect and admiration for real-world ATC and are sincerely interested in learning as much as possible about how to simulate what we do as accurately as they can.  There's no reason why we should be condescending, or really anything other than helpful, and even grateful that other folks have such an interest in and respect for our job.  These are the same people who, even though they don't really have a dog in the hunt since they're not controllers or pilots, will still tell their friends and write to their congressmen about how unfair the FAA situation has become, or petition to keep GA airports open.  Alienate them and you lose that support, which is short-sighted.

Anyway, I haven't thought or written about VATSIM in many many months so this turned out a bit long, but those are my thoughts.  If your ambition is to be a controller but you can't apply yet because you're too young, not ready, waiting for the call, whatever, then I'd go ahead and go the VATSIM route if it interests you (keeping in mind that, as I wrote above, a significant percentage of your time will be spent dealing with dumbass pilots in ways that don't really relate to real-world controlling), because although it's not perfect it's certainly better than nothing.  Just find a facility where the people in charge actually know what they're doing and will teach you according to the real-world rules as much as possible.  Avoid the places where they just throw you on the scope and you make up your own rules as you go along, Pushing Tin-style, because then you'll just end up with a bunch of bad habits that you have to unlearn when you actually start your real-world training.
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tyketto
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 02:30:18 PM »

vatsim is a game that may or may not help you in OKC.what is taught in OKC isnt real atc. the first thing we tell new people from OKC is forget everything they taught . real ATC is learned on real traffic  from real controller who work that airspace not on a computer game. their is no way you can convince me  that this will help and iam comming from 27 years of control tower, enroute and tracon time.iva also trained quite a few folks in my time .we just had our first 3 trainees wash out in the lab 2 had military atc and one was a beaver cti who had more training than you vatsim friends.

OG
ATCS/C90

My, my, my! touched a sore spot, haven't I? I really must have hit you in either one of too places: your ego, or lack of knowledge. I think both, as both seem to have brought out some misguided arrogance and untruths that need to be aired out. I will start with those first.

Quote from: ogogog
vatsim is a game that may or may not help you in OKC.what is taught in OKC isnt real atc. the first thing we tell new people from OKC is forget everything they taught .

You don't say!! Your first assumption lies here. You assume that people who use that network don't know or can't discern a game or simulated environment from the real world. In part, you're right, because of SY's description of dumbass pilots. But you really do lack some people skills or the ability to perceive that people would know the difference. That is your biggest mistake there. I suggest taking a good hard look at yourself and realize how flawed your logic and general faith is in people. They aren't mindless atomatons or just blips on a screen. They're people. you are one. Or maybe less than one, or not one at all...  rolleyes

Quote
real ATC is learned on real traffic  from real controller who work that airspace not on a computer game.

So apparently, OKC is wrong too. But if they are spitting out controllers who are working real traffic, and doing a damn good job of it, I don't want them to be right. That also means that if they are right, logically, you're wrong. I wonder...

Quote
their is no way you can convince me

I am not trying to convince you. I don't care what you think. You can be as arrogant and defensive as you want. But it is hard to disregard fact:

  • Places like VATSIM do offer an envrionment to use what you are learning in the Academy or in the real world without anyone getting hurt or killed. At the worst, their plane resets.
  • Practice makes perfect. In the real world, you must always be perfect You can't achieve perfection without practice. The Academy and networks like VATSIM provide that venue for practice
  • See my previous quote regarding foreknowledge. If someone comes in with some of the knowledge and fundamentals in hand, it a) makes them an easier student to teach, b) more progressed in the course, and c) gets them out on the scopes faster, where they are badly needed.
You can not argue that. If so, you'll prove to be even more of a shallow and narrowminded fool than you've already made yourself out to be, and that is of no fault of mine.

Quote
iam comming from 27 years of control tower, enroute and tracon time.iva also trained quite a few folks in my time.

That's great. I'm glad you have had 27 years of experience. Assuming you got into this at 20, that puts you late 40s/early 50s. I'm glad you have had the chance to work in a field that a lot of people would love to be in, work at so many different facilities, and be trained by you. Too bad you couldn't put your experience to use and provide some stories or tales of your work to us instead of being an ass.

At least with VATSIM or any other network, people who can't pursue this field can live vicariously. It would be an arrogant jerk who could take a person's dream away.. Oh wait, I remember who I'm replying to..

Quote
we just had our first 3 trainees wash out in the lab 2 had military atc and one was a beaver cti who had more training than you vatsim friends.

I have already had one friend of mine get the call to ZLA Center, who came out of VATSIM. He's already working Sector 41 there (over RZS/Santa Barbara/GVO). The person that used to run the place there worked at KBUR Tower. He is now retired, lives in the UK, and comes on from time to time to control. Heh.. You're at C90 TRACON. There's someone there who comes onto VATSIM all the time, and even has provided training. You may even know him. Goes by the last name of Dofflemeyer. Go look him up. He can explain a lot to you, and be a "real person" to put your "real ego" and arrogance in check. I will laugh if this person makes it too. Perhaps I'll call C90 and have them throw some humble pie in your face when they get on the scopes.

You know.. If this is the type of attitude we pwople who support you receive, well.. you're not the only ones with 'control'. All it takes is for us to drop our support of oyu guys. We tell our elected representatives that we don't want to support you guys, and it's done. You should remind yourself, that it is our tax dollars funding your facilities, your training, and your salaries. Without those, you would be nothing.

Check yourself, and, as a friend of mine at NCT says when he performs handoffs to jerk pilots, "Catch U Next Time!"

BL.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 02:32:13 PM by tyketto » Logged
w0x0f
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 04:02:26 PM »

Hello Moderators

Time for this...

http://www.easyweigh.com/kumbaya.htm
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ogogog
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 06:38:05 PM »

vatsim is a game that may or may not help you in OKC.what is taught in OKC isnt real atc. the first thing we tell new people from OKC is forget everything they taught . real ATC is learned on real traffic  from real controller who work that airspace not on a computer game. their is no way you can convince me  that this will help and iam comming from 27 years of control tower, enroute and tracon time.iva also trained quite a few folks in my time .we just had our first 3 trainees wash out in the lab 2 had military atc and one was a beaver cti who had more training than you vatsim friends.

OG
ATCS/C90

My, my, my! touched a sore spot, haven't I? I really must have hit you in either one of too places: your ego, or lack of knowledge. I think both, as both seem to have brought out some misguided arrogance and untruths that need to be aired out. I will start with those first.

Quote from: ogogog
vatsim is a game that may or may not help you in OKC.what is taught in OKC isnt real atc. the first thing we tell new people from OKC is forget everything they taught .

You don't say!! Your first assumption lies here. You assume that people who use that network don't know or can't discern a game or simulated environment from the real world. In part, you're right, because of SY's description of dumbass pilots. But you really do lack some people skills or the ability to perceive that people would know the difference. That is your biggest mistake there. I suggest taking a good hard look at yourself and realize how flawed your logic and general faith is in people. They aren't mindless atomatons or just blips on a screen. They're people. you are one. Or maybe less than one, or not one at all...  rolleyes

Quote
real ATC is learned on real traffic  from real controller who work that airspace not on a computer game.

So apparently, OKC is wrong too. But if they are spitting out controllers who are working real traffic, and doing a damn good job of it, I don't want them to be right. That also means that if they are right, logically, you're wrong. I wonder...

Quote
their is no way you can convince me

I am not trying to convince you. I don't care what you think. You can be as arrogant and defensive as you want. But it is hard to disregard fact:

  • Places like VATSIM do offer an envrionment to use what you are learning in the Academy or in the real world without anyone getting hurt or killed. At the worst, their plane resets.
  • Practice makes perfect. In the real world, you must always be perfect You can't achieve perfection without practice. The Academy and networks like VATSIM provide that venue for practice
  • See my previous quote regarding foreknowledge. If someone comes in with some of the knowledge and fundamentals in hand, it a) makes them an easier student to teach, b) more progressed in the course, and c) gets them out on the scopes faster, where they are badly needed.
You can not argue that. If so, you'll prove to be even more of a shallow and narrowminded fool than you've already made yourself out to be, and that is of no fault of mine.

Quote
iam comming from 27 years of control tower, enroute and tracon time.iva also trained quite a few folks in my time.

That's great. I'm glad you have had 27 years of experience. Assuming you got into this at 20, that puts you late 40s/early 50s. I'm glad you have had the chance to work in a field that a lot of people would love to be in, work at so many different facilities, and be trained by you. Too bad you couldn't put your experience to use and provide some stories or tales of your work to us instead of being an ass.

At least with VATSIM or any other network, people who can't pursue this field can live vicariously. It would be an arrogant jerk who could take a person's dream away.. Oh wait, I remember who I'm replying to..

Quote
we just had our first 3 trainees wash out in the lab 2 had military atc and one was a beaver cti who had more training than you vatsim friends.

I have already had one friend of mine get the call to ZLA Center, who came out of VATSIM. He's already working Sector 41 there (over RZS/Santa Barbara/GVO). The person that used to run the place there worked at KBUR Tower. He is now retired, lives in the UK, and comes on from time to time to control. Heh.. You're at C90 TRACON. There's someone there who comes onto VATSIM all the time, and even has provided training. You may even know him. Goes by the last name of Dofflemeyer. Go look him up. He can explain a lot to you, and be a "real person" to put your "real ego" and arrogance in check. I will laugh if this person makes it too. Perhaps I'll call C90 and have them throw some humble pie in your face when they get on the scopes.

You know.. If this is the type of attitude we pwople who support you receive, well.. you're not the only ones with 'control'. All it takes is for us to drop our support of oyu guys. We tell our elected representatives that we don't want to support you guys, and it's done. You should remind yourself, that it is our tax dollars funding your facilities, your training, and your salaries. Without those, you would be nothing.

Check yourself, and, as a friend of mine at NCT says when he performs handoffs to jerk pilots, "Catch U Next Time!"

BL.


iam touchy, man you really dont get it do you.all okc is is a screen the real learning starts in the field all okc is just a game no more no less.my post wasnt ment to put any one down i was giving you what ive seen the last 27 years and what i know to be true if you have taken it the wrong way well i guess thats life.as for ego it seems ive brused yours ,you seem very angry.as for throwing humble pie around well food is not allowed in the control room.as for people skills iam no diffrent than all the other controllers here but your not a controller so i guess you dont know us.so you want to screw all the other controllers because your made at me, that  isnt very mature.well i have to take a nap now, had a busy day working lots of traffic.
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ogogog
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2007, 06:53:51 PM »

Hello Moderators

Time for this...

http://www.easyweigh.com/kumbaya.htm

thanks for the link dude, i feel better now uuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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tyketto
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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2007, 08:17:09 PM »



iam touchy, man you really dont get it do you.all okc is is a screen the real learning starts in the field all okc is just a game no more no less.my post wasnt ment to put any one down i was giving you what ive seen the last 27 years and what i know to be true if you have taken it the wrong way well i guess thats life.as for ego it seems ive brused yours ,you seem very angry.as for throwing humble pie around well food is not allowed in the control room.as for people skills iam no diffrent than all the other controllers here but your not a controller so i guess you dont know us.so you want to screw all the other controllers because your made at me, that  isnt very mature.well i have to take a nap now, had a busy day working lots of traffic.

I get a lot more than you know, or your brain capacity allows you to.

I'd love to see where you had your training done at. If it wasn't the facility in OKC, it was something similar to it, which by your words, is just a game with a screen. So for all intents and purposes, you sledge the very place or nearly the very place you come from. You have to love hypocrisy. You'd make a wonderful bureaucrat.

What you mean and what you say are two different things. You stated that basically because of your experience, you are better than anyone else trying to learn your profession, whether virtually or in the real world. I would hate to have you as a boss. your arrogance in that part is only exceeded by your ignorance.

The Law of the Normal states that you can only teach someone as much as you know. By that, it means that with you training people, they will only learn as much as you teach them. And, assuming that you have taught them all that they need to know about ATC, let alone all that you know, there will be a time which they will know and do more and better than you. It appears from your previous posts that you would have a hard time dealing with that, especially if my friends make a good career out of this, seeing that they came from, in your words, "a game."

I have no ego as far as this is concerned. You have been the one that has paraded through here, bragging about how much you've done this or that at X and Y facility, and that you have so much experience. That doesn't make you a better person than anyone. It makes you a braggart. Goliath was the biggest, baddest, strongest person around. And he was defeated by who? David. Youngest and smallest of 8 children.

As far as the control room goes, I pretty much know what can be taken in and out, as I have visited them in my time, as well as a number of different control towers. I'm pretty well familiar with daily operations, and I don't think we need you assuming that because you think you know everything that we do not, thank you very much.

As for people skills, I've met some very nice controllers (and some pretty hot ones as well! Wink ) at various towers, TRACONs, and RAPCONs that I have had the honour of visiting. They have all been very friendly, taken the time out to explain their operations, what they do, and the hardware they have.

Oh.. let me add insult to injury here.  evil

On my tour of NCT, they showed us a spare spoke (their setup is basically 7 areas around a hub; like a bicycle wheel) where they would simulate traffic and have new trainees handle things in that area before plugging them into the scopes. A screen, where traffic wasn't real. Does that mean that NCT is a GAME? By your definition, it is. Their ATM would laugh at you for that.

I am not angry at you at all. I never have been. What upsets me is the fact that you have the tendency to generalize something that you know nothing about, just like you think we don't know anything about ATC, and are very quick to jump to a conclusion and judge. If you were wise, you would at least withhold any judgment until you know the facts about something, instead of making a fool of yourself for being completely wrong and misguided about it. I am not going to try to change your mind; that would be an exercise in futility; besides, if this keeps up with you, the Dilbert rule will apply.

Enjoy your nap. In the meantime, I am scheduling a tour of L30 TRACON and Las Vegas Tower, as I happen to personally know the ATM there (another good controller, who is eager to show people who are interested what his career is all about).

BL.
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ogogog
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2007, 10:18:13 PM »

every time you post you show how little you know.
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tyketto
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2007, 10:40:06 PM »

every time you post you show how little you know.

Yet you have shown nothing to back up yourself. For me, it is pretty much safe to say that people on this very forum can vouch for my knowledge, qualifications, and contributions to here, and any other network I may be on. However, all you have done is say "I'm better than you, because I do this for real." You judge, then can't stand to be judged yourself You are not holier than thou. Just because you may work in this profession does not mean you are the be all/end all to it. Right now, I have the distinct feeling that you can't rebuke anything that I have said or stated in this thread. So you attack my knowledge. As I have been on this forum for quite a while, I invite you to go through my posts here, and prove if anything I have said here is wrong. If you can't, or don't, your argument has no value, and you've proven yourself to be nothing more than a prejudicial arrogant jerk who can't live with having someone not working in your field calling it like it is.

In short, get over it.

Now, the Dilbert Rule applies to you (everyone else, take note):

Never argue with someone who is an idiot. They will drop you down to their level, then beat you with experience. -Dogbert

BL.
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NL_SPS_twr
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My office, SPS tower


« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2007, 10:52:39 PM »

one question for the both of you tyketto and ogogog, what the hell does this argument have to do with the condition of ATC? The topic is not the condition of ATCers SIM or real world. Take it elsewhere.

NL
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