Author Topic: Runway Names When Taxiing  (Read 16463 times)

Offline jvnanu

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Runway Names When Taxiing
« on: April 09, 2014, 08:55:53 AM »
Hey guys. Which runway name is used when giving instructions to cross a runway? Suppose you're crossing runway 15L/33R. Does ATC tell you to cross 15L or to cross 33R or does it depend?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 08:57:31 AM by jvnanu »



Offline RonR

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2014, 10:43:48 AM »
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it may depend on where you would be crossing the runway.  If you're closer to the 15R end of the runway, you'd be told to cross runway 15L and, vice versa, if you're closer to the 33R end you'd be told to cross 33R.  I've also heard pilots being told to cross 15L/33R...

Offline tyketto

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2014, 01:26:36 PM »
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it may depend on where you would be crossing the runway.  If you're closer to the 15R end of the runway, you'd be told to cross runway 15L and, vice versa, if you're closer to the 33R end you'd be told to cross 33R.  I've also heard pilots being told to cross 15L/33R...

It should be whichever runway is ACTIVE. If you're at the end of 15L/33R, and the 15s are being used, you should be told to cross runway 15L.

think about it this way. If the 15s are active, and ATC told you "XXX123, traffic holding in position, cross runway 33R", and you cross and look down to the approach end to runway 33R, chances are that you probably aren't going to see any traffic down there, because the 15s are being used for arrivals and departures.

They may use both names for the runway for clarity, but it shouldn't be because the pilot is closer to one end of the runway than the other.

BL.

Offline RonR

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Re: Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 01:55:20 PM »
Thanks tyketto, that makes perfect sense. Thanks for clearing that up :)

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Offline Rick108

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 02:15:35 PM »
I've never really thought about this before, but since this thread started, I've been paying closer attention.  It seems (at least at my home airport) that when referring to the active runway, they use the just the approach end (i.e. "cleared to cross runway 24"), whereas when I'm cleared across an inactive runway, they give BOTH ends (i.e. "cleared to cross runway 6/24").  Maybe it's just a local custom, but in thinking about it, it does make some sense.

Offline tyketto

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 02:58:23 PM »
I've never really thought about this before, but since this thread started, I've been paying closer attention.  It seems (at least at my home airport) that when referring to the active runway, they use the just the approach end (i.e. "cleared to cross runway 24"), whereas when I'm cleared across an inactive runway, they give BOTH ends (i.e. "cleared to cross runway 6/24").  Maybe it's just a local custom, but in thinking about it, it does make some sense.

That's interesting..

Is Tower giving the crossing instruction? My understanding is that if a given runway is inactive, control of the inactive runway falls to the Ground controller.

For example, when Las Vegas goes into Configuration 3, runways 1L and 1R are used for arrivals and departures, while 25L is used for arrivals only. 25R/7L is inactive. As such, when inactive, the runway becomes a taxiway, which falls under the control of the ground controller.

Now, this may just be SOP for LAS, but I'll look in the latest revision of the .65 to see if that is consistent.

BL.

Offline Rick108

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 03:12:44 PM »
...Is Tower giving the crossing instruction? My understanding is that if a given runway is inactive, control of the inactive runway falls to the Ground controller.
In my case (KROA, Class C), it's always Ground giving the taxi instructions.  I never talk to Tower until I reach the departure runway.  (Although often the same voice on both frequencies!)

Offline tyketto

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2014, 02:25:46 AM »
25R/7L is inactive. As such, when inactive, the runway becomes a taxiway, which falls under the control of the ground controller.
So how does Vegas Ground refer to that new "taxiway" then? "Runway" followed by the numbers of whichever departure end the pilot happens to be closest to based on a quick glance/guess?

They refer to it as the runway name parallel to the one active. In this case, with configuration #3, it would be runway 25R. Though this would be used with Back-Taxi phraseology, as defined in the P/CG.

In Configuration #2, they use the 1L/1R for landing, with 7L for IFR departures, and 1L at Whiskey for VFR aircraft. That leaves 7R not used, but not inactive, so they would also refer to it as the parallel runway to the one that is active, so in this case it would also be 7R.

...Is Tower giving the crossing instruction? My understanding is that if a given runway is inactive, control of the inactive runway falls to the Ground controller.
In my case (KROA, Class C), it's always Ground giving the taxi instructions.  I never talk to Tower until I reach the departure runway.  (Although often the same voice on both frequencies!)

That's fine there, but if the runway is inactive, it should fall under the jurisdiction of the ground controller, not tower. Back to Vegas for the example. If the 1s and 25L are being used for arrivals, Tower will instruct aircraft to hold short of runway 25R, and contact Ground. Unless coordinated, Tower won't give the crossing instruction for an inactive runway.

BL.

Offline jermscentral

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2014, 11:02:29 PM »
For us at STL, it doesn't really make much of a difference. Runway 6/24 isn't used all that much, but when it is, we typically only use 24 (operations on runway 6 are strange and only seem to serve to confuse the TRACON, though we have been known to use it), so when we tell someone to cross, we usually say to "cross runway 24". Almost all of our regular pilots know the route anyway, so they don't question it.

When the runway is inactive (such as 6/24 is most of the time for us), if the tower controller keeps the aircraft, he won't coordinate the crossing with Ground, even if Ground owns it. We consider it the same as using a taxiway, though we still call it a runway (example: "Taxi to the gate via Papa, Quebec, Charlie; cross runway 30L). Without the actual words "Cross runway XX", a pilot is not authorized to cross a runway, active or inactive. The only time we appreq a crossing is when Ground needs to cross an active runway.

Offline ARRZZ

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2014, 11:23:25 PM »
I always tell the aircraft to cross the runway that is active or likely to be most aligned with the wind.

Let say the wind is 12012kt

And at ARR, Runway 15 may be the active runway. Taxi instructions would be RWY 15 taxi via Alpha, Bravo, Cross Rwy 18, Hold Short Rwy 15. Then Cross Rwy 15 Hold Short Rwy 9.

I say cross runway 18 instead of runway 36 because thats the direction aircraft are likely landing from . Same goes for Cross Rwy 9 instead of 27.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2014, 03:03:58 AM »
They use whatever runway name makes sense.  As a pilot you know (or are supposed to) that they're the same piece of pavement and the runway sign has both numbers on it.

Offline tyketto

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 01:56:25 PM »
They use whatever runway name makes sense.  As a pilot you know (or are supposed to) that they're the same piece of pavement and the runway sign has both numbers on it.


This is not correct. Again, refer to where traffic may be holding in position. Telling a pilot who just landed on 25L (the 25s are active) to cross runway 7L, with traffic holding in position, the pilot is going to look down towards the approach end of 7L and see nothing, because traffic is holding in position at 25R.

The runways that are active are the runways that are going to be used. If there is a single runway in use, or the airport has only one runway, that is a different story. ARRZZ has it right, and a more detailed at that.

BL.

Offline InterpreDemon

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 04:37:35 PM »
Concur, and even runways that are not active are referred in the direction of use... for example if instructed to taxi westward on inactive 9/27, you will be told to taxi down 27. The same convention holds for active runways (named in current direction of use), so if that same runway were active as 9, and you were going west, you would be told to back-taxi or backtrack runway 9.

Offline DhruvK

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Re: Runway Names When Taxiing
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2014, 12:45:05 AM »
It can also depend on local SOPs that specify a designation. For example, Grand Forks (GFK) always refers to runway 9L/27R as 9L in crossing instructions so as not to be confused with runway 17R in case of a blocked transmission.

Ex.: "Runway 17R, taxi via B, A, cross runway [blocked] seven Right" vs "Runway 17L, taxi via B, A, cross runway [blocked]-er Left"

In that case, it falls back on the pilot to verify, but avoiding similar runway designators on the radios in this case cuts down the amount of errors.