Author Topic: T ROUTES  (Read 9399 times)

Offline MIAMIATC

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T ROUTES
« on: September 03, 2007, 11:34:46 AM »
Anybody have a chart showing T ROUTES out of FL into the Caribbean. I do not show these routes on the NACO charts I have at all or the Atlantic Route charts.



Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2007, 09:07:15 AM »
Do you have evidence that they currently exist for that area?   

T-routes (low altitude airways that are built to be navigated solely by IFR-certified GPS and typically are more direct routes than the Victor airway system over the US) are relatively new to the US NAS and do not exist in every US region just yet. 

Offline binky

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2007, 12:25:51 PM »
If you purchase a set of DoD charts (Sporty's) you'll see the T-routes, or at least they used to be on them.  I also have some charts from a North American passenger airline which show all the T-routes.  Interesting how they dont appear on the NACO ones, not even the ones coming off VRB or OMN.

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2007, 12:50:33 PM »
I also have some charts from a North American passenger airline which show all the T-routes.

Interesting.   I don't doubt it but I am curious why an airline would provide a map of GPS T-routes for its passengers?  Are airlines equipping their aircraft with IFR GPS's here in the lower 48 states?

In any regard,  below is an example of how T-routes are depicted on the current IFR low altitude en route charts, where these routes exist. 

This chart is courtesy of SkyVector.com, for those who want to peruse the charts for free on the web.  I looked at the low altitude chart for the Florida area and didn't see any T-routes on those charts, which makes me wonder if any of those routes currently exist.

Note the routes in blue on this chart:






Offline rpd

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2007, 01:19:11 PM »
Interesting.   I don't doubt it but I am curious why an airline would provide a map of GPS T-routes for its passengers?  Are airlines equipping their aircraft with IFR GPS's here in the lower 48 states?

It is more unusual to see an airline aircraft without GPS in the US. Most major carriers have some sort of advanced RNAV/GPS.  One exception is NWA DC9's which do not.  Also a lot of commuter aircraft are without GPS.   
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 01:26:51 PM by rpd »

Offline davolijj

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2007, 02:57:42 PM »
...One exception is NWA DC9's which do not.  Also a lot of commuter aircraft are without GPS.   

FedEx's 727s are another one....darn /Ws.

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2007, 03:08:27 PM »
It is more unusual to see an airline aircraft without GPS in the US. Most major carriers have some sort of advanced RNAV/GPS.

Hmmm, isn't there is a difference between RNAV equipment on many of the airliners and GPS?  In other words, while the end result is the same (aircraft can navigate without radio navigation aids), doesn't the RNAV equipment installed in many of the airliners use a different means of guidance than the GPS satellite constellation?   

I read of a restriction on many of the T-routes that required GPS.  Technically, assuming there is a difference as I questioned above then would the RNAV equipment on the airliners that do not use the GPS satellite constellation be allowed to fly a T-route?  I don't know that answer.

Offline rpd

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2007, 06:03:45 PM »
Most airliners use FMS (Flight Management System).  The system icorporates aircraft performance data (fuel flow, etc.) with navigation.  I believe the system can use  multiple sensor inputs for navigation to include VOR, DME, INS, LORAN, or GPS.  A pilot type person may have more specific/detailed explanation.

I am assuming most aircraft are using GPS for NAV these days.  But that is just speculation on my part.  It is true that not all air carriers have GPS capability.  But most with FMS can do GPS procedures if they are RNP capable.

This is getting way to technical for me. 

 

 
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 06:23:51 PM by rpd »

Offline Jason

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2007, 07:22:56 PM »

Hmmm, isn't there is a difference between RNAV equipment on many of the airliners and GPS?  In other words, while the end result is the same (aircraft can navigate without radio navigation aids), doesn't the RNAV equipment installed in many of the airliners use a different means of guidance than the GPS satellite constellation?   

I read of a restriction on many of the T-routes that required GPS.  Technically, assuming there is a difference as I questioned above then would the RNAV equipment on the airliners that do not use the GPS satellite constellation be allowed to fly a T-route?  I don't know that answer.

Many FMS/FMCs are RNP capable, allowing the use of GPS procedures.  I suppose T-routes could be considered just one of the types of GPS procedures, but I'm not 100% certain as T-routes are relatively new and I don't know as much about them as other procedures.

Since T-routes are used in/around Class B airspace, I doubt most airlines would be flying them unless they're not already established on a STAR or being vectored for an approach.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 07:27:28 PM by Jason »

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2007, 09:12:47 PM »
Since T-routes are used in/around Class B airspace, I doubt most airlines would be flying them unless they're not already established on a STAR or being vectored for an approach.

Good point.

Offline binky

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Re: T ROUTES
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2007, 01:51:47 PM »
to SYR-PJ- I never mentioned that as a passenger I received charts from an airline.  I have connections to the aviation industry and have access to ATS publications.