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Author Topic: Terminology  (Read 12780 times)
bcrosby
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« on: September 14, 2005, 10:46:48 AM »

Just a few things that I hope someone can clarify.

What does it mean when an aircraft is designated as "heavy".

When an ATC asks an aircraft to climb at a "good rate", what does that mean?
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tyketto
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2005, 11:53:38 AM »

Quote from: bcrosby
Just a few things that I hope someone can clarify.

What does it mean when an aircraft is designated as "heavy".


It is used to indicate a number of things. First off, 'heavy' indicates that the weight of the aircraft exceeds 255,000lbs. Those that do are B753s, B767s, B747s, B777s, B787s A330s, A340s, A350s, A380s, DC10s, L1011s, B2s, B707s, Antonov 25s (I believe that's the bird), and Concordes.

Secondly, this also means that the above planes generate a great amount of wake turbulence to those within its class, as well as smaller class aircraft (B737/A320 and below). Technically speaking, a B752 generates this as well, but does not exceed the 255,000lb weight limit[1].

Quote

When an ATC asks an aircraft to climb at a "good rate", what does that mean?


When an aircraft climbs, it is climbing at a particular rate of speed. Standard rate for climbs and descents is 1500ft per minute. When ATC asks for a good rate of speed, they are looking for a good rate that the pilots can get the plane to the altitude assigned without compromising the safety of the aircraft. If a plane could do 3000ft per minute, and do it safely, there's a good rate of speed for the climb.

BL.

[1] unless configured to be so, by request. Reference the B752s that ATA uses. They are configured to exceed that limit by request. So all of their B752s are deemed 'heavy'.
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bcrosby
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2005, 03:59:59 PM »

Thanks!

So the purpose of designating an aircraft as heavy is for which reason? Just to make ATC aware of wake turbulance that could affect smaller planes in its vicinity?
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davolijj
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2005, 04:17:21 PM »

Controllers have to apply different separation standards to Heavy aircraft than they do non-heavies.  Also wake turbulance delays for aircraft departing behind a heavy jets cannot be waived by the pilot.  Small aircraft departing behind non-heavies can always request and be granted a deviation from any wake turbulance delays.
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FlyCMI
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2005, 04:24:58 PM »

Also, a heavy sign lets the air traffic controller know that the plane will need more distance to turn than smaller planes, and usually it won't be able to climb as quickly.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2005, 06:42:12 PM »

Quote from: bcrosby
So the purpose of designating an aircraft as heavy is for which reason? Just to make ATC aware of wake turbulance that could affect smaller planes in its vicinity?


I believe the designation has the added benefit of providing awareness to all other pilots on that frequency, too.

As a pilot of a small GA aircraft who one time inadvertantly crossed a 727 wake (perpendicular to it, fortunately - it jarred my aircraft like a large NY City pothole), I know my ears really perk up when I hear the heavy designation on the same frequency.
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frantzy
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2005, 04:32:36 PM »

Quote


When an aircraft climbs, it is climbing at a particular rate of speed. Standard rate for climbs and descents is 1500ft per minute. When ATC asks for a good rate of speed, they are looking for a good rate that the pilots can get the plane to the altitude assigned without compromising the safety of the aircraft. If a plane could do 3000ft per minute, and do it safely, there's a good rate of speed for the climb.



Aren't these two separate things...rate of climb and rate of speed?  A good/best rate of climb would be to increase from 1500 fpm to 3000 fpm, good rate of speed would be forward speed, like 270 knots.  

Depends whether controller needs vertical or lateral spacing, but I've heard "Give me your best forward speed in the climb" and I assumed that to mean normal rate of climb + abnormally high forward speed in the climb.
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tyketto
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2005, 05:24:10 PM »

Quote from: frantzy
Quote


When an aircraft climbs, it is climbing at a particular rate of speed. Standard rate for climbs and descents is 1500ft per minute. When ATC asks for a good rate of speed, they are looking for a good rate that the pilots can get the plane to the altitude assigned without compromising the safety of the aircraft. If a plane could do 3000ft per minute, and do it safely, there's a good rate of speed for the climb.



Aren't these two separate things...rate of climb and rate of speed?  A good/best rate of climb would be to increase from 1500 fpm to 3000 fpm, good rate of speed would be forward speed, like 270 knots.  

Depends whether controller needs vertical or lateral spacing, but I've heard "Give me your best forward speed in the climb" and I assumed that to mean normal rate of climb + abnormally high forward speed in the climb.


Well, there's two different types since you're not limited to horizontal movement, thanks to gravity. Recall the speed formula:

speed = distance / time.

So with 1500fpm (standard rate), if he wanted best rate in the climb from the above example, his speed (vertically) would have increased.

In short, you're right, but I'm right too. cheesy

BL.
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Tom56
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2005, 05:30:39 PM »

What does wasie level mean?
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davolijj
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2005, 05:40:17 PM »

Quote from: BuZZ56
What does wasie level mean?

In what context?
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JD
digger
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2005, 05:55:32 PM »

I googled wasie level. This was the 1st result:


Waypoint WASIE CA
44° 5' 32N 79° 17' 19W WASIE CA

Surprisingly, this was the second result:


http://www.liveatc.net/forum/about490.html

"I heard most flights to cross the WASIE fix level and at 200 knots or less..."

If there were a comma--"cross the WASIE fix, level and at 200 knots.."

Does it make sense now?
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Tom56
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2005, 05:59:46 PM »

"maintain 10,000 cross wasie level"
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davolijj
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2005, 07:12:57 PM »

Looks like digger's got your answer above.
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JD
Tom56
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2005, 07:38:50 PM »

Ahhhhh, I thought it was some kind of location reference. It was throwing me
off because sometimes they say through wasie or across wasie.
Thanks for the replies.
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frantzy
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2005, 07:42:01 PM »

Quote from: tyketto


In short, you're right, but I'm right too. cheesy

BL.


I can live with that!  cheesy

Mike
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digger
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2005, 08:19:26 PM »

Quote
"maintain 10,000 cross wasie level"


Or, to translate for the pilots: When you cross the WASIE fix, one the needles on the Altimeter thingy should point to a one and  the others should point to some zeros, and the needle on the Verticle Speed Indicator thingy should point to the zero.


 Cheesy
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Mike111
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2006, 02:17:03 AM »

Well being a CTR controller in the Toroto FIR on VATSIM, I can tell you that the WASIE fix is on the Simcoe 2 Arrival at Toronto Pearson (CYYZ). When they say cross WASIE level, WASIE is just an intersection on the STAR (Standard Terminal Arrival). Depending on the active runway, aircraft will cross the waypoint at either 10000 and 250 knots, or 7000 and 210 knots. The phrase, "cross WASIE level" simply means descend and maintain 7000 or 10000 and be level at that altitude (not climbing or descending) by the time you pass the waypoint.
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Mike Freeman
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2006, 08:51:28 PM »

Quote from: tyketto
It is used to indicate a number of things. First off, 'heavy' indicates that the weight of the aircraft exceeds 255,000lbs.


This not actually correct.

7110.65R Appendix A, Para "a" Under Aircraft Weight Classes states that a Heavy is...

Aircraft capable of takeoff weights of more than 255,000 pounds whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.

A 747 weighing 254,999 lbs is STILL a "Heavy".
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Matthew M. Kreilein
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davolijj
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2006, 09:38:16 PM »

Quote from: mkreilein

This not actually correct.

7110.65R Appendix A, Para "a" Under Aircraft Weight Classes states that a Heavy is...

Aircraft capable of takeoff weights of more than 255,000 pounds whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.

A 747 weighing 254,999 lbs is STILL a "Heavy".


Not to split hairs or anything.... cheesy
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JD
mkreilein
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2006, 11:32:03 PM »

How come your quoting, etc. looks normal and mine looks like butt???
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Matthew M. Kreilein
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davolijj
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« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2006, 11:45:34 PM »

This forum has issues with the Quote funtion.  You can probably find the reason in another thread.
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JD
dave
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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2006, 09:34:56 AM »

Quote from: davolijj
This forum has issues with the Quote funtion.  You can probably find the reason in another thread.


I am going to try and fix this soon...possibly breaking some other stuff in the process.  smiley

Dave
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Jason
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2006, 10:48:30 AM »

Quote from: dave
Quote from: davolijj
This forum has issues with the Quote funtion.  You can probably find the reason in another thread.


I am going to try and fix this soon...possibly breaking some other stuff in the process.  smiley

Dave


[sarcasm]
If you don't fully fix it, at least make the things after the "quote" something funny.  Right now all I get to see is: [quote:b36eee251e="davolijj"].  

I think it should be something like this: [quote:@!LiveATCrocksourworld!@="davolijj"]
[/sarcasm]
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2006, 02:42:51 PM »

Quote from: mkreilein
How come your quoting, etc. looks normal and mine looks like butt???


This actually has to do with how often a poster is on-topic or not, as judged by the website mgmt.   smiley

Actually, I was curious if it had to do with the user's web-browser.  I am using Firefox and the quoting seems to always work.  Perhaps how the browser treats actual quote marks?
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Regards, Peter
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keith
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2006, 10:49:51 AM »

I didn't realize there was a 'standard' rate of descent or climb. I had understood that the MINIMUM rate of climb/descent was 500fpm. Aircraft unable to attain that rate have to let ATC know.  

Other than that, an aircraft is expected to descend or climb at the most optimal rate for the type of plane and under the experienced conditions.

Where is the 1500fpm figure from?
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