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Author Topic: Toronto ATC Question  (Read 10839 times)

Offline dshore

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Toronto ATC Question
« on: October 19, 2008, 10:07:09 PM »
Newby question....
Toronto controllers tell the pilots on approach to cross beacons (is that the right name) such as Meadowvale, Rexdale, Bulge.....is this the correct term and is there a map available showing these beacon locations ?

When the pass the beacon, are they physically right on top of it or within a certain range ?

Thanks



Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: Toronto ATC Question
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 11:47:07 AM »
I'll take a stab at this until someone more familiar with Canadian airspace chimes in. 

Posting chart images is difficult for me because I don't believe there is a free website that offers Canadian approach plates or IFR charts.  The closest I have is the US Detroit sectional chart and IFR chart (thanks to the fact that Pearson airport is close to the US border and therefore is covered by US charts). 

Here is the low IFR chart that covers the Toronto Pearson airport.  Note by my annotations that there are four non-directional beacons (beacons for short) that are used as outer markers for each direction's ILS approach.   Two of the names you listed are clearly marked there, but I am not sure where BULGE is.   BULGE, if you heard that correctly, is most likely an intersection farther out that is used as the initial approach fix.  Without an approach plate, though, I can't tell.



Most aircraft being vectored for the ILS approach will be vectored to intercept a point about 3-5 miles farther out than these NDBs, or outer markers.   Well, actually in the case of a busy airport like Pearson the aircraft are probably strung out in a line a lot longer than 5 miles, but that is irrelevant to my next point.

By the time the aircraft cross these NDBs they will be navigating by the localizer radio signal that emanates from a radio tower adjacent the runway.  The localizer provides lateral navigation, or runway centerline guidance as part of the ILS.   So, yes, the aircraft physically fly right over the beacon at a height of around 2,000 feet above the ground or so, assuming the pilot (or autopilot, as the case may be) is properly tracking the localizer.   

In most cases these particular beacons, or outer markers, are used to provide situational awareness for the approach and to denote the final approach fix but they are not used as primary means of navigation; that is what the localizer provides.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 11:49:07 AM by KSYR-pjr »

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: Toronto ATC Question
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 11:58:30 AM »
Another interesting trivia tidbit about NDBs is that they are heavily used in Canada and will be for the foreseeable future (last I read), while here in the US just about all NDBs will be phased out of use by our FAA within the next five years or so.   The phase out here in the US is due to both the desire to reduce the cost of maintaining the national airspace as well as the proliferation of the GPS in aircraft.

Offline MIAMIATC

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Re: Toronto ATC Question
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 01:57:46 PM »
You will finf Bulge to the EastEast Southeast of YYZ on this chart.

http://www.canairradio.com/YZ%20Terminal.jpg

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: Toronto ATC Question
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 02:06:10 PM »
You will finf Bulge to the EastEast Southeast of YYZ on this chart.

Thanks for that.   

Offline kkjlai

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Re: Toronto ATC Question
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 10:18:00 AM »
Newby question....
Toronto controllers tell the pilots on approach to cross beacons (is that the right name) such as Meadowvale, Rexdale, Bulge.....is this the correct term and is there a map available showing these beacon locations ?

When the pass the beacon, are they physically right on top of it or within a certain range ?

Refering to CYYZ, NDB Beacons for approaches are Meadowvale [ZLP](RWY 5), Rexdale [ZDH](RWY 23), Woodhill [ZTO] (RWY 15L), and Queensway [ZYZ] (RWY 33R)..  They are available on the Approach Plates as mentioned by the other poster. 

If you live in Toronto (or actually somewhere which has a NDB) , you can see the big tall antenna for the NDB beacon.

For non-NDB approaches, the markers @about 4 DME are VEPNA (6L), SAVOS (6R), HOFFS(15R), KIREX(24L) and NOAHA (24R). 

Notice the FIXes are always 5 letters

Pilots usually fly right on top of the NDB (give or take a bit).  Nowaways, they usually look at the GPS for the NDB instead of looking for the ADF to swing.  Nothertheless, some pilots still like the old Electronic Nav method.  For the Fixes, most of them look at the GPS, or the DME readout.

For BULGE or, CALON, BIGBE, THORL etc, these are waypoints (for departures in Toronto), which could be found if you have a copy of the VNC map.

kkjlai

Offline bcrosby

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Re: Toronto ATC Question
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 03:45:18 PM »
Here is a more detailed look.

In this map the locations of the NDBs are identified by a single letter. This has since changed to the three letter identifiers that you can see in the ifr-lo chart posted above.