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Author Topic: Watch those headings and altitudes  (Read 9287 times)
dave
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« on: August 06, 2008, 08:43:07 AM »

Picked up on AVWeb:

"If you've ever missed a turn, set the altitude bug incorrectly or
committed any of thousands of sins that air traffic controllers routinely
catch and help correct every day without much fuss, those days are
apparently over. The FAA has apparently ordered controllers to violate
pilots for any and all errors and has threatened to discipline them if they
don't file the reports..."

<http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/bizav/1181-full.html#198538>

Just what we need, more friction between the FAA, NATCA, and pilots.  This is less than useful, IMO.  I can see violations for major errors, but this seems to be going a little far.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 09:34:49 AM »

Oh, man.   Reads as if the FAA wants to actively reduce the number of certificated pilots, which in turn will reduce the number of controllers and will ultimately reduce the FAA budget.  Good move  shocked.

For the real GA pilots here, be sure to bookmark the NASA Aviation Safety website and remember to quickly file a NASA report after any mistakes that could now lead to this violation.  The NASA site now allows electronic submission of the form (I have used it once already):

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html

Filing a timely NASA report should protect against violations, assuming the violation was not deliberate and blah, blah, blah.

Also if you belong to AOPA, consider joining their legal protection division for the extra US $25 per year.  Cheap insurance specifically made just for this sort of thing.


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Regards, Peter
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Jason
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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 10:25:56 PM »

Very much agree with you both, this is only going to cause more friction between all involved parties when there doesn't need to be.  We should all be looking out for each other.  As Peter pointed out, NASA ASRS on everything that you could get clipped for doing, even if it was for the better.  As they say, it's a jungle out there.



Best,
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jrsx
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2008, 12:55:11 AM »

Oh, man.   Reads as if the FAA wants to actively reduce the number of certificated pilots, which in turn will reduce the number of controllers and will ultimately reduce the FAA budget.  Good move  shocked.

For the real GA pilots here, be sure to bookmark the NASA Aviation Safety website and remember to quickly file a NASA report after any mistakes that could now lead to this violation.  The NASA site now allows electronic submission of the form (I have used it once already):

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html

Filing a timely NASA report should protect against violations, assuming the violation was not deliberate and blah, blah, blah.

Also if you belong to AOPA, consider joining their legal protection division for the extra US $25 per year.  Cheap insurance specifically made just for this sort of thing.




I'm a student pilot and have never heard of the NASA ASRS. Just curious to know, why would filing a report protect against a violation?
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dave
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2008, 02:29:13 AM »

NASA ASRS is a very useful program.

The immunity policy can be found here:
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/immunity.html

You should read it and explore the ASRS web site for great safety information, but here is the important section:

5. Prohibition Against the Use of Reports for Enforcement Purposes

    * Section 91.25 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.25) prohibits the use of any reports submitted to NASA under the ASRS (or information derived therefrom) in any disciplinary action, except information concerning criminal offenses or accidents which are covered under paragraphs 7a(1) and 7a(2).
    * When violation of the FAR comes to the attention of the FAA from a source other than a report filed with NASA under the ASRS, appropriate action will be taken. See paragraph 9.
    * The NASA ASRS security system is designed and operated by NASA to ensure confidentiality and anonymity of the reporter and all other parties involved in a reported occurrence or incident. The FAA will not seek, and NASA will not release or make available to the FAA, any report filed with NASA under the ASRS or any other information that might reveal the identity of any party involved in an occurrence or incident reported under the ASRS. There has been no breach of confidentiality in more than 30 years of the ASRS under NASA management.

-Dave



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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2008, 08:57:55 AM »

Nice picture, Jason, although these days from my vantage point I see the FAA as more of a Bert, the notoriously humorless and anal partner of Ernie and Bert fame:

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Regards, Peter
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Jason
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2008, 08:59:32 AM »

Nice picture, Jason, although these days from my vantage point I see the FAA as more of a Bert, the notoriously humorless and anal partner of Ernie and Bert fame:

That puts a whole new perspective on my childhood...I grew up with those guys!
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2008, 09:03:30 AM »

That puts a whole new perspective on my childhood...I grew up with those guys!

Ha, so did I - about two decades earlier!  smiley
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Regards, Peter
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w0x0f
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2008, 07:11:59 AM »

http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2008/08/license-and-reg.html

That's how most controllers will approach this situation.

w0x0f
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cessna157
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2008, 09:15:22 AM »

The FAA's annoucement of controllers becoming police of the skies will not go well at all.  If that is the game that the FAA wants to play, naturally the professional pilots of the country, who will only be protecting themselves, will surely respond with the same intent.  Those of us who fly through N90 on a regular basis could have a field day with violating controllers.  There are a few controllers there that rarely use standard phraseology.  I'm definitely not saying that they all do it.  But, just as the old adage says, it only takes a few bad apples.  A couple examples of such clearances would be something like "EGF290 two eight zero up to 17" or "JBU282 new york 23-9."  Yes, the first clearance, as I would interpret it, would be to turn to a heading of 280 and climb to 17,000, and the second would be to contact New York Approach or Center on 123.9.  But thats the problem, its an interpretation.  Clearances should not be interpretations, they should be simple, clear-cut instructions.

Allow me to reiterate that it is not all controllers, at N90 or nationwide, and it is not only N90 doing this (just listen to ORD ground give 5 aircraft taxi instructions with no chance for a readback or even saying "break" between instructions) that do this.  But if they are going to start to violate pilots for not doing everything by the book or, god forbid, make a small mistake, then they will of course be held to the same standard.
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2008, 08:23:08 AM »

This is a great blog entry from Don Brown at "Get The Flick."

http://gettheflick.blogspot.com/2008/08/n12345-youre-busted.html
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glencar
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2008, 10:45:27 PM »

The FAA's annoucement of controllers becoming police of the skies will not go well at all.  If that is the game that the FAA wants to play, naturally the professional pilots of the country, who will only be protecting themselves, will surely respond with the same intent.  Those of us who fly through N90 on a regular basis could have a field day with violating controllers.  There are a few controllers there that rarely use standard phraseology.  I'm definitely not saying that they all do it.  But, just as the old adage says, it only takes a few bad apples.  A couple examples of such clearances would be something like "EGF290 two eight zero up to 17" or "JBU282 new york 23-9."  Yes, the first clearance, as I would interpret it, would be to turn to a heading of 280 and climb to 17,000, and the second would be to contact New York Approach or Center on 123.9.  But thats the problem, its an interpretation.  Clearances should not be interpretations, they should be simple, clear-cut instructions.

Allow me to reiterate that it is not all controllers, at N90 or nationwide, and it is not only N90 doing this (just listen to ORD ground give 5 aircraft taxi instructions with no chance for a readback or even saying "break" between instructions) that do this.  But if they are going to start to violate pilots for not doing everything by the book or, god forbid, make a small mistake, then they will of course be held to the same standard.
I don't think I'm one of those controllers of whom you speak. Let me point out that there's a world of difference between poor phraseology & not following control instructions. I had one airline(international) that routinely screwed up on approach & on departure. I let it slide until about the 10th time. BTW I've been on vacation for a bit but I don't recall getting this memo & I'm sure I'm not the only one.
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camrnlendy
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2008, 12:16:09 AM »

cessna157,

there is a big difference between a certain JFK RJ airline that nearly every day,  messes up a particular JFK departure SID (which has triggered dangerous situations), and a controller who says," contact the tower on 23-9." 

controllers are not out to be cops, and like glencar said, we have not seen this memo. 



« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 12:19:31 AM by camrnlendy » Logged
FlySafe
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2008, 09:50:00 AM »

jrsx and other pilots:
IF you are a pilot consider attending the Safety Program seminars and applying for the WINGS Program, there are a lot of advantages for you when you attend, i.e. applies to your biennial flight review requirements, reduces insurance costs etc..  As a student you cannot get credit for the WINGS program and the information is invaluable.

http://www.faasafety.gov/default.aspx

When we hold our "Evening with ATC" a lot of information is discussed, one of the items we cover and encourage is the NASA REPORT.  Go to the Aviation Safety Reporting home page and look around, there is a lot of information there.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/summary.html

Technically it is a "get out of jail free card" (as long a the event you were involved in was not malicious or intentional). 

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html


[/quote]

I'm a student pilot and have never heard of the NASA ASRS. Just curious to know, why would filing a report protect against a violation?

[/quote]
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Natasha  
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dave
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2008, 06:38:32 AM »

There is a great podcast over at Gold Seal Live on this:

Controllers as Police Discussion

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