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Author Topic: Watch those headings and altitudes  (Read 8810 times)
goowe
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« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2008, 09:41:48 AM »

This forum is great Smiley I went into my safety class and, thanks to this forum, knew what they were talking about already when we started discussing ASRS.

Very neat!

I'm listening to the 25 Zulu show regarding this... but I haven't read/heard anything else. Are controllers still being asked to report pilots?
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« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2008, 10:15:43 PM »

So can we write up controller errors?   

I had a controller vector me for a ILS 22  approach to LEX.  Not hearing for my next turn,  I blew through the ILS. So  I ask the controller ' Approach, 34Y... so what's next?"   

She (the controller) was not amused and ordered me back out behind the OM and to the furthest IAF.    I was low enough on fuel where I gave her a bingo notice.  The pissed mist could be detected all the way out to my plane but she did put me right back on the ILS within a minute. 

Now my question is: Did she write herself up?
 
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drFinal
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2008, 05:03:46 AM »

So can we write up controller errors?   



Why don't you try it and see how it works out for you...
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2008, 07:32:47 PM »

Posted by: T210 Driver  Posted on: September 26, 2008, 10:15:43 PM 
Insert Quote 
So can we write up controller errors?   
 
It may be a bit lofty of you to feel it's your place to 'write up controllers'. In the 20+ years I've been controlling, I've NEVER met a controller who went out of his way or searched for a reason to write a pilot up. There was once a phrase used of 'Air Cop', but most of us feel it's more like we bring 'control and order ' to chaos than sit there with badges (we don't have no stinkin' badges) and whip out our ticket pad and start writing pilots up.
   Honestly, if that were the case, writer's cramp would become the most used on-the-job injury on the CA-1 forms! Especially if you're talking about petty things like: didn't turn when he should have, didn't use the aircraft's standard rate of climb/descent, read back the wrong freq. read back the wrong altitude, put in the wrong code, didn't check the Oscar November button on the transponder, etc. 
   Yes, controllers, including myself, make mistakes. Remember though, when the driver who logs 30K miles a year and has an accident or gets a ticket, is compared to the driver who drives 3K miles a year and has a clean record, who is the better driver? Who has a greater chance of getting into an accident or getting a ticket? huh
   Time for a little soap box rant: the FAA knows that pilots and controllers work together on a daily basis, and they usually do it very well, but times are changing. The controller workforce is being driven out in order to bring in fresh faces, happy to have a job, and willing to do that job for way less then what is being paid right now. Remember, we are REQUIRED to report pilot errors. If we don't, it becomes ammo that can be used in our termination process, 'Insubordination'. If you or anyone else wants our input, we think it is one of the stupidest things that the FAA has come out with. The majority of us, if there is no one "watching", will blow off 99% of the goofy errors made by pilots. We cut you as much slack as possible, to the extent of even sending an air carrier around when you taxi your nose past the hold short lines, and never making note of it. Part of the problem is that the FAA is sending out SO MANY STUPID THINGS, it's hard for us to focus on just one!
   Feel free, however, to go ahead and write us up as often as you feel it necessary and appropriate. I'm sure that it will bring you mounds of joy and we have special spots in far away places on airports and in the air to park you so you will be able to revel in the moment and truly bask in the warmth! cheesy
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drFinal
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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2008, 03:37:14 PM »

I have to be honest--at N90 I have NOT been asked or ordered to turn in pilot errors. I have not been briefed on it either. There was a clipboard to turn in pilot read back errors only--nothing more. Read back error reporting  ceased after three days as it created too much extra work for all of us due to the great number read back errors.

I have always felt the blame for anything bad that occurred from a read back error NOT caught by a controller is  placed all on the controller. Is that right? Maybe. Lately it seems a lot of pilots just don't listen carefully to instructions anymore and they read back anything they want--even incorrect call signs (I'm talking regional and airliner pilots mostly.) Or maybe pilots just read back what they want to hear or what they think they are going to hear.

It's getting to the point where combining transmissions with two control instructions is too much for 7 out 10 pilots.

Another BIG problem is pilots taking transmissions meant for other aircraft. I can enunciate call signs and companies  and numerics all I want--it doesn't matter. I can see pilots confusing similar call signs but should I have to say, "XXX2152 use caution ZZZ6789 is on the freq--similar call signs"Huh Because that's what it's coming to...

In any case this is not a pilot bashing post--pilots that are willing to help me out (airport and traffic in sight, we're cro-bar equipped today, we can do any speed you want) have traditionally been greater in numbers than the stiffs who don't know the capabilities of their vehicles.
 



 
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goowe
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2008, 05:33:34 PM »

...we're cro-bar equipped today...

hehe Smiley
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cessna157
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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2008, 05:50:30 PM »

...we're cro-bar equipped today...



I'm a little slow.  I don't get it?   I've never heard that one before.



On a related note, I've had controllers leave us up high, then give us a late crossing restriction, or a crossing that is outside of the norm, and my reply always is "Nah, we can make it.  This thing glides like a Kenmore."
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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2008, 06:43:16 PM »

I definitely agree that lately we've had more readback errors or omissions by aircarrier/taxi pilots than g/a's.
 Let me give you an example, from last night!
  (call signs have been changed to protect the guilty)
   AAY8848H checks on, and is given 'heading 340 vectors ILS6 descend at pilot's discretion maintain 3000.
  AAY8848H: roger 340 down to three.
ME:  AAY1120, fly heading 160 vector ILS6, descend and maintain 4000.
AAY1120 roger, 160 down to four.
ME: AAY1120 turn left heading 090 join the localizer.
  AAY8848H: roger turn leftheading 090, hey wait that heading wont work!
ME: AAY1120, turn left heading 090 join the loc.
  AAY8848H: Ah that heading's no good for us, what's your plan!?
ME: AAY8848H that's not for you, AAY1120, turn left heading 090 join the loc.
  AAY8848H: O.K. you want me to turn all the around to the left and join the localizer?
ME: No AAY8848H, I want you to realize that all those transmissions were for AAY1120, your call sign is AAY8848H, his is AAY1120, these are not similar sounding callsigns! You sir need to turn right heading 040 for the intercept!
   Both of these a/c were on the same freq. after I switched the heavy to tower, I apologized to the second a/c. His response was "Oh, no problem, I apologize for him!"
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goowe
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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2008, 06:50:24 PM »

...we're cro-bar equipped today...



I'm a little slow.  I don't get it?   I've never heard that one before.

I assume drFinal was making a reference to the same "crow bar" style of flying that the controller uses in this video: (at about 1:45)
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cessna157
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2008, 07:15:34 PM »

Heh heh, that was pretty good.  I thought I've seen/heard all of the funny ATC quotes, but that's a new one to me.  I guess thats similiar to the races that I've heard with jump planes (caravan, in particular) racing the jumpers back down to the ground.
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2008, 07:53:27 PM »

...we're cro-bar equipped today...



I'm a little slow.  I don't get it?   I've never heard that one before.

I assume drFinal was making a reference to the same "crow bar" style of flying that the controller uses in this video: (at about 1:45)



YES YES!!!  Cro-bar, slam dunk, shoe horn--it's all the same!!! Mostly for Lendy arrivals they come down good and we keep them within 10 miles of JFK!! The guy on the youtube is retired now--never thought I'd hear that voice again!! I remember him discussing that with the pilot--I was working next to him.
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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2008, 08:12:40 PM »

Steep approaches can be fun, but only when we know they're coming.  JFK can get the slam dump sometimes from overhead down to the 4s or GPS13s, from my experiences.  If you ever have trouble with someone descending, just tell them how long their final is going to be and they'll hurry on down.

CVG and AUS stand out for giving steep approaches consistently.  We always laugh when flying into ATL and approach advises "expect short approach."  For us, short approach would be just that, very short, maybe within 5 miles.  But a "short approach" at ATL is usually a 12 mile final instead of 20.  I guess its all relative.
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2008, 08:41:03 PM »

If you ever have trouble with someone descending, just tell them how long their final is going to be and they'll hurry on down.



Oh I always butter you guys up--

Whenever anyone asks their sequence I don't care where they are I always say--"Number 1 with a good rate down."

4 out of 5 pilots give it to me. The 5th pilot ends up at the end of the line (but only if I'm not going to screw myself putting him there.) Sometimes a lesson ain't worth the world of hurt it's going to cost.
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