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| | |-+  Why not only feed one frequency?
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Author Topic: Why not only feed one frequency?  (Read 3805 times)
theflyingbear
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« on: July 05, 2008, 01:00:49 PM »

That's a great site, and I enjoy listening to ATC, mainly
for training purposes.

What I don't like though is listening to a mixture of two -
or more? - frequ., while the scanner switches back and forth.

I am just tuned in to Phily Appr.
I personally find it distracting to listen to an ATC instruction,
and when there is only a short lag btw. that instruction and
the readback, it is followed by another - often only partial -
instruction on the other frequ., then the readback, then again
the scanner switches back and lets you listen to another
part of an instruction, and so on....

Some days ago I listened to JFK Ground / Delivery, and it is
very rare to catch a complete clearance followed by the readback,
because ground is so busy it kicks in as soon as there is a tiny
lag on the del. frequ.

Why not feed only one really busy frequ., so it is easy to keep
track on what's going on?

I would appreciate to learn the opinion of my fellow listeners!

Have a great day!
Heinz.
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Walters
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008, 08:41:15 PM »

its mainly an equipment issue..all of these feeds are done voluntarily and at the feed providers own expense, and not everyone can afford multiple scanners/computers. although its probably the dream of everyone on here(or at lleast myself..lol) for each freq to be isolated it would require too much hardware to make it happen
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dutchmil
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2008, 09:43:59 AM »

Hi,

I prefer to scan not too many frequencies myself, as I also find it distracting when
you miss read-backs etc. Unfortunately setting the feed to a single frequency only,
will cause too many pauses between transmissions and will probably make it
less interesting for many to listen ...... The best thing in my opinion, is to find
the right balance and scan only two or three frequencies at the same time.


Just for your information, the EHAM / Schiphol feed is set to one, single frequency
only this afternoon. Please let me know if this is preferred by more listeners, if this
is the case, I will consider doing this more often at peak times at Schiphol.


Happy listening !!


René.
Live ATC feed from the Netherlands
http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/eham.m3u
 
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theflyingbear
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2008, 03:54:06 PM »

Hi,

thanks René, feeding only one busy frequency is by far the best
option, well, at least in my opinion...  smiley .. and it's worth "enduring"
theses rare moments of silence in btw., especially when listening
in order to gain proficiency and, as I do, copying the instructions
and clearances; I just use a pause to practice reading back what
I had copied.

As Walters wrote, it is also a matter of financial resources; and,
as always, one tries to get out the best results for one's input.

But, in this case, less would yield the much better results.
Consider this:
What would be the use of turning on the radio, or watching TV,
and having someone switching randomly back and forth btw.
two or more channels?
It would be good mainly for creating background noise.....

On the other hand, my suggestion feeding only one frequ. will
make sense only when there is something to listen to most of
the time, during peak hours at busy airports.
During times or at locations of less dense air traffic listening to
more than one feed would make more sense, and then there
would be less conflict and overlapping of transmissions.


Enjoy the world of aviation !

Heinz.

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JetScan1
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 02:01:11 PM »

Quote
I prefer to scan not too many frequencies myself, as I also find it distracting when you miss read-backs etc.

I agree, in the case of monitoring congested airspace or busy airports when only one radio can be provided at any one particular location, I would much prefer to listen to one frequency/sector or position rather than trying to scan too many at once. There are a lot of feeds that could be improved greatly if the number of frequencies being scanned was reduced. My personal pet peeve is the Clearance Delivery frequency with the same repetitive transmissions blocking out other active frequencies all the time. As a start I'll put my money where my mouth is and offer a considerable $$$ bribe (site donation) to Dave if he can get this annoying frequency removed from every radio that is currently scanning it, and implement a site policy to ban it from all future radios.

DJ
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 03:29:42 PM »

As a start I'll put my money where my mouth is and offer a considerable $$$ bribe (site donation) to Dave if he can get this annoying frequency removed from every radio that is currently scanning it, and implement a site policy to ban it from all future radios.

I would hazard a guess that you are championing for the removal of CD from feeds scanning multiple frequencies, not removing CD from this site as a single feed, correct?

While I am in general agreement with you, the latter would be of extreme value to the many instrument students who come here looking for clearance copying practice.  In fact, I was considering ponying up the additional cash to fund a feed from my local airport that was CD only for just that reason.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
JetScan1
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 04:51:12 PM »


Quote
I would hazard a guess that you are championing for the removal of CD from feeds scanning multiple frequencies, not removing CD from this site as a single feed, correct?

Yes, if there were lots of radios available at a particular location a dedicated CD feed would be okay, although it would be my last priority at a busy airport.

Quote
the latter would be of extreme value to the many instrument students who come here looking for clearance copying practice.

This is where having some clearance delivery airtime saved in the archives is a great idea. When students want to practice they can just download it off the archives, freeing up a radio to monitor other frequencies.

http://www.liveatc.net/recordings.php

Of course the ultimate solution to this problem would be having ONE radio receiver that can be tuned to different frequencies by multiple users simultaneously. The technology to do this is being tested in the Ham bands at this website.

http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/

Now if we could get something like this to work on the airband frequencies we would be all set, ONE radio could cover ALL frequencies at any particular location. Cool !

DJ
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theflyingbear
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2008, 09:06:21 AM »

Quote
When students want to practice they can just download it off the archives, freeing up a radio to monitor other frequencies.

Hi DJ,

is this really your message to all the instrument students here?
Go and search the archives to find the staff you need??

Just remember, all those students are future actors behind the
mics feeding all the frequencies you will be listening to then!!

Hopefully like a pro, thanks to a great site like this one!

Never mind, I just had to post this one...   wink

Heinz.

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JetScan1
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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 11:01:26 AM »

Quote
is this really your message to all the instrument students here? Go and search the archives to find the staff you need??

Yes, someone has already taken the time to put together an archive for this very puropse. You can find it in the "Captured Recording" section of this site, titled "IFR Clearance Practice" and "More IFR Clearance Pratice".

http://www.liveatc.net/recordings.php

DJ
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theflyingbear
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« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 02:53:40 PM »

DJ,

....it seems to me my message did not come across as intended....

I am well aware of the recordings we can find in the archives, and they
are one additional tool that can be very helpful in the learning process.
I am more than happy to make use of every option to improve my
knowledge and skills.

I just don't like the mindset that's behind your suggestion to tune out
the CD, and telling students, or anyone who wants to improve their
communication skills with ATC, to listen to repetitive recordings rather
than to live ATC.

Students do not want to go to the archives only in order to free up
radios to monitor other frequ, they want to monitor live ATC too,
especially CD!!

That' my point.

Everyone learning please get out of my way, everyone already proficient
welcome..... seems to be common in many parts of our life, unfortunately....

Heinz.
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tyketto
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« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 03:16:30 PM »

its mainly an equipment issue..all of these feeds are done voluntarily and at the feed providers own expense, and not everyone can afford multiple scanners/computers. although its probably the dream of everyone on here(or at lleast myself..lol) for each freq to be isolated it would require too much hardware to make it happen

I'll come at this from another perspective.

What if ATC combines operations onto one given frequency? For example. Las Vegas TRACON has their services split up onto 5 separate frequencies for departure, 3 for approach (including 2 from departure, that service as approach and departure for KHND/61B and KVGT). The one that gets the most hectic is Final, on 135.0. So let's say that Glenn decides to just feed that frequency.

At midnight local, all of those frequencies (going off the top of my head, 135.0, 118.4, 119.4, 120.45, 125.6, 125.9, 133.95, and 125.02) all combine on 125.02. So what happens to the single 135.0 feed? you'd only get half the conversation on the feed (only what ATC says), and nothing from the pilots. ATC would be broadcasting on all of those frequencies, but only the pilot would be on the departure frequency given in his clearance.

So it would make sense to scan more than one frequency if lack of hardware is an issue. If hardware isn't, then you could handle small rotating frequencies the best on a number of scanners, so we could take advantage of everything being said on frequency.

BL.
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JetScan1
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« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 04:40:50 PM »

Quote
I just don't like the mindset that's behind your suggestion to tune out the CD, and telling students, or anyone who wants to improve their communication skills with ATC, to listen to repetitive recordings rather than to live ATC.

All I'm saying is that by removing the CD frequency from certain feeds you would be freeing up a lot of airtime for other frequencies. Frequency congestion, wasn't that why you stated this thread in the first place ?

DJ
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theflyingbear
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 09:56:26 PM »

Quote
Frequency congestion, wasn't that why you stated this thread in the first place ?

Yes, that's correct, and to be more specific, the reason for me to raise that issue
has been the fact that, as a result of combining several frequ., you get a lot of only
partial transmissions.

E.g. a pilot asks ATC for a deviation for weather, the controller does not respond
instantly, and the next you hear may be "cleared ILS 27R, maintain 180 KTS to Jalto".

Or, if you are patient enough listening to JFK GND, you are rewarded by catching
the second half of a clearance, or, even worse, you hear a pilot calling CLNC DEL
ready to copy, and the next you hear is "left on B, short of N....."

No matter for what reason one listens, that does not make much sense to me;
it's not fun, and I wonder what's the use of listening to transmissions that are
interrupted by an ongoing transmission on another frequ., as soon as there is a
tiny lag btw. an instruction or answer and the response.

My suggestion would be to to feed some of the scanners only with one busy
frequ., like René ("dutchmil") did last sunday at EHAM - see a previous post -
that was really fun to listen to, and very useful, too.

When feeding more frequ., may be it would be more practical increasing the time
a channel can be silent until the scanner starts scanning... it's just an idea that
comes to mind while I am writing, but I do not know if there is an option to adjust
the scan delay time.
But, in case it is, that would probably reduce interruptions and provide more
consistent communications, at the cost of a couple of seconds of silence in btw.

The example of LAS shows indeed that there will be no single solution to satisfy
all needs; I agree with tyketto that past midnight listening to only one single feed
would be not very interesting.

Heinz.

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enginebird
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2008, 05:32:53 AM »

Quote
Or, if you are patient enough listening to JFK GND, you are rewarded by catching
the second half of a clearance, or, even worse, you hear a pilot calling CLNC DEL
ready to copy, and the next you hear is "left on B, short of N....."

While I see the problem with money/resources/etc. mentioned in earlier posts, I have to second theflyingbear on his request to separate GND and DEL for the JFK-feed (on of the most popular feeds and always in the top30). The frequencies at JFK can get very busy and the constant switching back and forth makes it at times impossible to follow the chronology of events.

Other than that, great job liveatc-crew, keep it going.  smiley
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