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| | |-+  ZNY - North Mountain
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Author Topic: ZNY - North Mountain  (Read 33348 times)
W3MAT
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« on: September 02, 2013, 07:07:23 PM »

Today I did switch over to the J-Pole antenna.  The reception of the 128.575 did improve a bit, as did the others.   I'm also hearing the controller switching flights to 121.325, possibly due to the storms moving through the area.  Looking at the flights scheduled from ORD-LGA, most have been delayed or cancelled.
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JetScan1
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2013, 10:21:41 AM »

Thanks for the feed ! Busy radio with all the EWR/LGA arrivals.

I see these two are listed ....

Quote
New York Center (Sector 72 Burni High [FL180-260]) 127.725

Quote
New York Center (Sector 93 Swissdale Low) 123.625

Just wondering if anyone knows the status of these two sectors/frequencies ?

From what I can tell the Burni Hi sector is usually combined into the Milton High Sector (128.575). Do they ever split these sectors ? In the past I have noticed they use 127.725 in this area in the late overnight hours.

When the IPT feed was active I never heard 123.625 in use. Do they ever use this frequency ? Seems like 134.800 and 124.900 cover it all ?

FYI the latest ZNY Letter to Airman Sector/Frequency chart that I can find is attached below. Trying to locate an updated version if anyone has it ? 

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W3MAT
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2013, 11:22:05 AM »

123.625, 124.9, 134.8 are all used by the controller simultaneously.  For example, when an aircraft is going to SCE I hear the plane on 134.8 and the controller on 123.625 (no delay set on either frequency so I can get both sides of the traffic).

Same is true for IPT arrivals, I hear the aircraft on 124.9 and ZNY on 123.625.  When I get to Williamsport or the Montoursville area (Olive Garden or Red Lobster) I do hear ZNY on 124.9.  I usually loose the aircraft once they cross Picture Rocks and get established on the localizer.  That mountain is just too big for my little antenna to get over and drop down the other side.. grin

As for 127.725, this frequency gets paired with 128.575 around 22:00 EST each evening.  Aircraft gets assigned to 127.725 and ZNY simul braodcasts on 128.575 and 127.725.

You need a scanner that you can manually activate and deactive the "delay" feature.  Those with a built in delay, like the Uniden BC350, is not the greatest for scanning ATC.  Just my opinion.

Have a great day and enjoy the feed.

Loon
W3MAT
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JetScan1
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2013, 11:48:24 AM »

W3MAT,

Quote
123.625, 124.9, 134.8 are all used by the controller simultaneously.

Okay thanks. I was wondering if they were transmitting on 123.625 as I never heard any aircraft get handed off to it. I also noticed using the ZNY IPT feed (when it was up) that they had the capability to cross-couple 124.900 and 134.800 but that they would only use this function occasionally. (for those not familiar - frequency Cross Coupling is a feature wherein the received voice on one radio in a pair of radios is transmitted over the other radio in that pair without operator intervention).

Quote
You need a scanner that you can manually activate and deactive the "delay" feature.  Those with a built in delay, like the Uniden BC350, is not the greatest for scanning ATC.  Just my opinion.

Yes, agree with this. The BC350 is a good radio but I'll never use it for airband scanning for this reason.

I was listening to your feed this morning (using Flash) with no problems, but over the last hour I have not been able to get the audio to work ? No problems with other feeds.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 10:12:52 AM by JetScan1 » Logged
W3MAT
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 11:52:55 AM »

I just opened it up in flash and it's working fine.  Anyone else having issues, let me know, I'll shut it down completely and restart it.
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JetScan1
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 12:05:33 PM »

Just tried it again and I see when I'm using Internet Explorer it still wont open, but I just tried it now using Google Chrome and it works fine. So it must be a problem with IE at my end. Although it's odd that I can still get other feeds to load using IE ?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 12:09:26 PM by JetScan1 » Logged
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 12:52:50 PM »

The BC 780 enables you to set the delay per channel, has better ears than the 350 and can be programmed via RS-232. I think a pair of them out there with two feeds (or one in stereo) would get the job done quite nicely.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
ferraraj
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 03:14:43 PM »

Loon...are you now able to add to the scan 121.32? Are you hearing the ground side? Since that sector is only open about 8 hours a day...shouldn't add too much to the reception "clutter". BTW...that sector only handles JFK arrivals (and Genl Aviation Newark Satellites-TEB & MMU)

Jim
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 03:17:45 PM by ferraraj » Logged

Feed Provider:
ZBW Boston Center (RKA10)
ZBW Boston Center (ART08/UCA09)
KEWR Twr/Gnd/Cl Dl
N90-EWR (Dep/ARD/North/MUGZY)
N90-LGA (EMPYR)
N90-Liberty (S)
N90-Liberty (W)
W3MAT
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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 04:00:02 PM »

Loon...are you now able to add to the scan 121.32? Are you hearing the ground side?

Jim

Jim,
I did not add it today, but I will put it in for you tomorrow morning.  I know we used to receive it here on the scanner at work, so I will plug it in now and see what I can hear.

Loon
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W3MAT
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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 04:23:20 PM »

Jim...  I am receiving both ZNY and aircraft on 121.32 on the scanner here at work, which is not on the best of antennas, so I feel relatively confident it should be good in the scanner providing the feed.


Loon
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ferraraj
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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 09:46:46 PM »

Super...thanks Loon! I look fwd to listening...esp next time the wx turns!

Jim
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Feed Provider:
ZBW Boston Center (RKA10)
ZBW Boston Center (ART08/UCA09)
KEWR Twr/Gnd/Cl Dl
N90-EWR (Dep/ARD/North/MUGZY)
N90-LGA (EMPYR)
N90-Liberty (S)
N90-Liberty (W)
W3MAT
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2013, 08:15:43 AM »

Good Morning All,

I added 121.325 to the scan list and I do have the delay set for this frequency, just like I do for 128.575, so not to miss both sides of the traffic.  I also added 129.4, but not sure if I will be able to receive anything on it.  We'll give it a go and see what happens.   Enjoy!

Loon
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2013, 12:03:32 PM »

Thanks for the 129.4, Loon, but I think it will be tough without a bigger magnet. Traffic will be rare, but if you hear phone patches and discussions about sick or unruly passengers, stuck lavatories and landing gear, you'll know you're getting it. In your area it will really light up when the wx is bad east as all these pilots discuss fuel and alternates with their dispatchers. I pick them up all the time from Long Island, as far out as Buffalo and south to Baltimore, but I don't get the ground side, which is simulcast from multiple locations (including LGA just 12 miles from my antenna), so you may actually hear the ground talking to a plane way out of range. That's why I am looking for a ground station I can merge.

FWIW, I did a path analysis from your QTH at 600' MSL, and even though it is only 14 miles crow fly to that ARINC transmitter at 2100', you've got a 1400' ridge 5.5 miles to the north that is just 100' too high. If you hear it at all it with your present setup it would mean it can be brought up to useful with appropriate gear.

On the other hand North Mountain is 29 miles line of sight, and a 2 or 3 element, wide-band
yagi would not only bring that ground transmitter up to full quieting but get all those planes climbing and descending at lower altitudes to the east even better. Higher ground to your NW will always limit your coverage that way, so a beam to the NE would not affect that or overhead traffic to any degree.

I can send you the mapping if you want it.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
W3MAT
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 01:14:33 PM »

The feed is now on a 3 element Yagi facing NE,  pointed right towards North Mountain.

Any difference?

Loon
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JetScan1
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 02:57:40 PM »

Quote
Any difference?

From what I've heard so far it sounds better to me. The controller on 132.15 is very clear, 5/5.

Interesting that the controller on 132.15 is noticeably stronger than the controllers on the other frequencies. I believe they are all transmitting from the same North Mountain location ? Except 124.900 and 127.725 that are from the Williamsport site ?

I also see the loud hum is gone, it sounded like some sort of computer interfence ?

Very good feed ! Kinda busy with the extra frequency added. I would always be happy to donate another radio to split things up if you can accomodate it.
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W3MAT
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2013, 03:16:18 PM »

You know, I worked on tracing that hum for the past two days and could not find it.  The only thing I noticed was when I unplugged the power cord feeding the laptop it would go away, plug it back in...hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.   After reading InterpreDemon's post about the Yagi I decided to do a real quick antenna change, since I just happened to have a Arrow Yagi in the radio room.  I took down the J-Pole, put up the Yagi, secured the coax, headed back in the radio room to check on my results and the first thing I noticed is the levels on the OddATC meters have dropped to almost nothing.... meaning the hum is gone!  Where it went, I haven't a clue, and I really don't care as long as it never comes back.  I did notice that reception, in my opinion, is much better.  The controller on 128.575 is still not full quieting, but much better, and like JetScan1 stated, 132.15 is 5x5.  Also, 123.625 has gotten stronger.  I do not know where that transmitter is, but is has to be to the east of me somewhere. 

JetScan1 wrote:
Interesting that the controller on 132.15 is noticeably stronger than the controllers on the other frequencies. I believe they are all transmitting from the same North Mountain location ? Except 124.900 and 127.725 that are from the Williamsport site ?

I also find this interesting.  The only thing I can figure is that possibly the antenna for 132.15 is at the top of the tower and the antenna for 128.575 hung mid-tower or lower.  I don't know, just a guess.
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JetScan1
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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2013, 03:26:09 PM »

Quote
The only thing I can figure is that possibly the antenna for 132.15 is at the top of the tower and the antenna for 128.575 hung mid-tower or lower.  I don't know, just a guess.

I wonder how directional ATC transmitters are ? Maybe different transmitter power outputs ?

Anyway, reception sounds good, getting traffic climbing off PHL checking onto 124.625 at around 10000-12000 feet about 4x4, around 80 miles away. This radio is located in Williamsport right ? What type of scanner are you using ?
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W3MAT
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« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2013, 03:46:01 PM »

The scanner and yagi are located about four miles northwest of Mifflinburg, or about 20 air miles south and west of Williamsport.  I am about 3/4 the way up a hill, or ridge, which does help.  I've been listening for about an hour now, and am impressed with the reception of the Yagi.

I also noticed 121.325 just came alive shortly after 3:00pm. 

The scanner I'm using is a Uniden BC-95XLT
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W3MAT
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« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2013, 03:53:24 PM »

Just Google mapped my location to PHL...107.16 NM
Not bad...
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2013, 05:48:27 PM »

Loon, yagi definitely better, and if you brew up a wide-band one it will be better for the spread of frequencies you are dealing with. I have a couple good models that I have built and that work very well, if you are interested.

Now, if you are able to get any of that 129.4 on the mountain up north, I'll give you the equipment for that one... commercial grade 129.65 2-el beam, GRR-23 receiver and windows box to send a 64k, low-latency tie-link over here and I'll add it to the 129.4 net I am trying to build. I have attached a pdf of that network.

In order to cover such a large area ARINC simulcast transmits from the locations indicated, each site with a slight frequency offset from its neighbors, and the airborne gear (running ARINC specs) has notch filters to eliminate the heterodyne. So, if a plane is up over Maine, your ground station will be transmitting even if out of range of IPT, and all I have to do is merge your signal via voting system with my ears down in Long Island (which pick up anything out to 250 miles at flight levels) which are linked here with a similar connection. The receivers are not squelched on site, the wide band audio just comes here and I employ a noise squelch and voting system, so the cleanest signal is the one that will go into the stream.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2013, 05:58:50 PM »

Loon, pay attention to the folks the weaker controller is talking to, I think you'll find he is talking to flights to the east, so he's probably got a directional array and you are on the back side of it. The fact that the others are banging now says you have done about all you can do for the time being until more listening data is analyzed. The next immediate chore is to get another radio and stream going because you've got a hot traffic site with enough reception capability for about four feeds, not counting ARINC. It's been a black hole out there for too long and I think your feeds will be in the top fifty pretty much permanently.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2013, 06:22:14 PM »

Yeah, I tuned in 128.575 and can get about half the aircraft over here in Stamford, which means the flights are to the east of North Mountain and that antenna is either on this (my) side of the tower or an array. Basically you can hear hand-offs from one side of the tower to the other between 128.575 and 132.15. The directivity needed to bring .575 up the 6-9db you'd need for DFQ would become a problem for omni coverage of the airborne transmissions, so it's not worth it even to a fanatic like me. It's solid, and that's all that counts.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2013, 07:27:43 PM »

The more I look at it, Loon, I think 28.575 is just a high-angle radiator in the usual FAA site configuration. The Milton sector coverage area, all high traffic, etc., would make that the best choice, and you're just too low, or in a weak lobe off the base of the antenna above you.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
JetScan1
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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2013, 08:43:04 PM »

Loon,

Quote
The scanner and yagi are located about four miles northwest of Mifflinburg

So that would put you 33 nautical miles southwest of the North Mountain transmitter. Excellent reception of an ATC Center at that distance !

ZNY also (or used to?) have a transmitter at Joliet, which is 36 nautical miles southeast of your location. published frequencies used were 120.025 and 128.000, although in the last few years they appear to have been replaced by 133.175. Just curious if you can hear any controllers on 133.175 ? There is also the Philipsburg site, 42 nautical miles to the west of your location, on 132.875, any chance you can hear the controller on that one ?

Sorry for all the questions, don't worry about it if you are too busy.


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W3MAT
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2013, 09:05:42 PM »

No need to apologize... we don't know if we don't ask. 

I cannot hear the controller on 132.875, Phillipsburg is a bit to far.  I have tried 133.175 in the past with no luck, but I will give it a listen tomorrow and see if I can hear anything.  I have also tried to hear 132.2, again with no luck.  I believe that transmitter is in the neighborhood of Gettysburg.

Now I have a quick question.  I've been using Flightradar24 to monitor flights, but I just found another site, Plane Finder, which seems to be a little more accurate and up to date.  I believe there is about a five minute delay in flight time on Flightradar24.  Just curious...

Loon
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