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| | |-+  Pilot's Responsible To See And Avoid
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Author Topic: Pilot's Responsible To See And Avoid  (Read 280 times)
scoobapilot
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« on: October 19, 2014, 10:36:29 PM »

I'm a student pilot ASEL, airplane single engine land. I was approaching an untowered airport the other day with my robot instructor anal retentive piece of dung.  I was a mile and 1/2 away and heard some transmission from someone of the garbled persuasion. Couldn't make out anything.
I made out "Valkaria Traffic".   Once I made out "crosswind"  but that is it.   I was looking all over for him because it is my responsibility to see and avoid other traffic. 
I said okay that's too close, I'm going to execute a 360 and maybe give us a chance to see him upon approaching again.
The instructard got all omnipotent and spewed forth a bunch of malarky like "No No No you could do 360's all day and never see him, just enter the pattern on a 45 degree downwind".
I'm thinking, HUH?  Go in blind without knowing who is in the pattern or where?
And I did it anyway, this instructard has 20,000 hours of given instruction
 so I enter the downwind I'm looking all around up and down, (Piper Tomahawk, has bulbous canopy and back window)
and he gets all out of sorts that I'm looking for traffic. (the cretin CFI says: "FLY THE PATTERN DONT WORRY ABOUT ANYONE ELSE")
and next thing I know I hear "SCRUMBLE CHIN CHOW CHOP Downwind TURNING BASE."
I Said "THAT"S WHERE WE ARE, so he is either right on top of us or right below us so I am going to
EXTEND MY DOWNWIND.  And he went defcon 3.  "DONT PAY ANY ATTENTION TO ANYONE ELSE JUST FLY THE PATTERN THATS
WHY THE PATTERN IS THE WAY IT IS SO YOU CAN FLY THE PATTERN"
and circular logic really gets my goat so I said "Like I say I am taking My Plane (I own the plane) and I am extending the downwind
so I don't hit that gentleman wherever he is."
IN a few seconds I look back and there he is the other airplane turning base.
I saved our lives by using common sense. He would have killed us because he is an anal retentive dildometer.
After we got back on the ground this tweekie gives me a mini-lecture on why we should not care about other traffic
and just fly the pattern.
It made no sense.
He holds a CONTROL TOWER OPERATOR certification.
He did ATC for 3 years.

What does anyone think of this guy?
Is he a bum?
Should I never fly with him again?
I know for a fact because I looked it up
that "PILOTS ARE RESPONSIBLE TO SEE AND AVOID" Traffic.

Should I not see and totally avoid this instructor?
I am going to anyway I just would like someone's input and
nobody I speak with has a clue what I'm talking about.

Any reply fully appreciated.
Thanks.
This has been ScoobaPilot
Over and halfway out but holding on with a little toe.
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swa4678
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 02:26:33 PM »

I'm not sure what sort of answer you're expecting from any of us, but I'll give my 2¢.

It sounds like there are at least 3 viewpoints of the same story. You told us yours, and it's clear you have a very heated and passionate take on the situation. Unfortunately, that tends to cloud things and/or diminish credibility. One has to wonder how anyone could make it not only through the certification process but also collect thousands of hours under his belt yet still have the attitude that you portrayed your instructor as having. In other words... “There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.”

I'll refrain from making or sharing any judgments about the instructor himself, given that I wasn't there nor do I have a neutral recount of the timeline of events.

I will say, however, that if you as a pilot ever feel dissatisfied or uncomfortable with an instructor... my opinion is: stop paying that instructor and find a new one.
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martyj19
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2014, 02:38:43 PM »

There must be a good working relationship between instructor and student.  So you should find another one if you are dissatisfied and can't work out your differences.

You do not say if you are pre-solo or post-solo.  In any event you will need to find one who will be willing to sign you off for solo and approve your solo cross-countries and then sign your 8710 when the time comes, so it may be wise to avoid burning through instructors.  If you own your airplane you must also be able to find a carrier who will insure it, so it may be wise to consider how your remarks are coming across to someone who is taking a financial risk on you.

Here is a little regulations quiz for you to think about:
a.  Who is pilot in command of a dual flight with a student pilot at the controls.
b.  What are the responsibilities of the pilot in command.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:37:16 PM by martyj19 » Logged
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2014, 08:10:10 PM »

If I heard somebody calling base the same time as me at an uncontrolled field I would have done the same as you did regardless who may have been sitting in the right seat, though in this case I find the idea that any pilot would insist on "flying the pattern" without regard or concern for other unseen traffic in the pattern to be somewhat inexplicable. The only thing I would caution against is blowing off your instructor or his motives too soon... I had an excellent instructor who routinely and deliberately gave me bad advice just to see whether I would exercise my own best judgment in the face of such intimidation, his rationale being that the only thing worse than getting no advice from an empty right seat is getting bad advice from any who occupy it, and the PIC is the one who has to make the decision. This guy might be acting like a prick for a good reason, but like your best schoolteacher you may not appreciate it until years later.

One thing I do note that he might have as well, is that you apparently factor ownership of the aircraft into flight decisions... If you didn't own the plane would you, as PIC have otherwise proceeded with what you considered at the time to be an unsafe course of action, and if not what justification would you have instead provided to your instructor?

Something to stimulate your little grey cells...
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scoobapilot
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2014, 09:44:59 PM »

Thanks for the great replies. It's pretty cool to be able to just go online and exchange ideas with older and bolder pilots.
I am post solo.  I hired this gentleman to check me out in order to take the practical. I haven't flown for 6 months and
just needed someone to see how I am doing.  I know he wasn't just trying to see what I would do because he reiterated
in the debriefing after our flight that it is way more important to fly the pattern than what anyone else is doing.
It was surreal.   I spoke with the flight school owner and he said I should have done the 360 and he would
also have extended his downwind as I did.  This instructor seemed pretty good at first but started becoming
increasingly hyper acting and then the above situation occurred.
 I will be flying with a different instructor in a few days.  This really happened. I'm not making it up.
Sometimes 63 year old people do flip a biscuit I guess and he might have been starting right there.
LOL
I feel a lot better but I'm not flying for a day just to get it out of my system.
It kind of upset me as you can probably tell.
Anyway, Blue Skies.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2014, 10:21:44 PM »

I would NOT have done the 360 on approach to pattern entry, BTW, because I had no way of knowing if he was in the pattern or entering just like me from my side of the field and I could be turning into his flight path. At that point I would have announced my position and intentions (1.5 miles out would have actually been a bit late for me) and proceeded to enter downwind since it is likely I would have seen him if he was already on downwind, however once in the pattern and hearing him call base, flying straight and level to extend the base was the better course of action. If you want to avoid ghosts, get out of the haunted house.
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Feed Purveyor:
KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
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