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| | |-+  IFR Departure and Return Question
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Author Topic: IFR Departure and Return Question  (Read 19528 times)
djmodifyd
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2009, 11:30:43 AM »

 A question for controllers - I recall a Usenet exchange a few years back about the tower controller being authorized to clear an aircraft for an approach.  However I don't remember the outcome whether the tower controller has this authority.  Anyone?[/b]

In my opinion, marineman, you are always wise to file a NASA report anytime you might question the legality of a situation.  Nice move, there.  

Towers can't actually clear aircraft for any kind of instrument approach (unless they're radar qualified approach control towers, like what dj was talking about.) but a visual doesn't count as one... it's actually an IFR procedure that must be performed in VMC. (500' above the MVA with vis of 3 or greater is the exact requirement to be vectored to it.) However, JO 7110.65 7-4-3 says we (tower guys) can't clear someone for one unless we have an LOA with our IFR facility.

In truth, I don't think it's actually expressly stated anywhere that we are unauthorized to clear someone for an instrument approach... but we can't because without the radar qualification/equipment we wouldn't be able to provide separation, or ensure the safety of the aircraft conducting the approach.

Contacts are a little different, because they aren't instrument OR a visual approach per se... but like SVFR, we can approve that because there are ways we can separate the aircraft from traffic and/or work with the IFR facility to ensure we don't have a SVFR/Contact Approach vs. IFR conflict.

So to close... Wink

Can towers clear someone for the approach? Yes, depending on the approach, the qualifications of the facility/controllers, and the situation.
If you're flying IFR can you still be cleared for a visual approach? Yes, as a matter of fact you have to be. Remember there's a difference between "IFR" and "IMC." If the weather is IMC (1000 and 3) you can't be vectored for a visual approach, even though you're on an IFR flight plan.
Was that the case here? No. Vis was 2 if I'm not mistaken.

As was stated earlier, the controller should have suggested SVFR or shipped him back to radar. Or marineman could have asked for a contact.

I am curious though, dj... when performing radar functions in the tower... what kind of equipment is that on?

Well, we are an up/down facility that uses STARS.  The tower also has STARS scopes that we use as our "brite".  They are essentially just mini versions of the radar scopes down in the TRACON.  the tower scopes are completely certified for radar separation and everything in between.  In fact, when we close down the tracon and become a tracab (IE the midshift) the radar controller just uses one of the "brites" to do all radar functions on.

One day i'll get some pictures of my facility and give a little "tour" if enough people are interested.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2009, 12:42:12 PM »

One day i'll get some pictures of my facility and give a little "tour" if enough people are interested.

Here's a count of 1.   You won't be putting your job in jeopardy by taking pics, will you? 
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
djmodifyd
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2009, 12:50:09 PM »

One day i'll get some pictures of my facility and give a little "tour" if enough people are interested.

Here's a count of 1.   You won't be putting your job in jeopardy by taking pics, will you? 

I have no idea I'm going to talk to the AATM about it
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madHATR
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2009, 02:04:23 PM »

We used STARS at one of the facilities I worked at. I went from that to a DBRITE with a bad habit of dropping targets inside of 10mi final. I miss STARS. Wink

Would love to check out pics of the facility if the boss allows.
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davolijj
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 02:16:05 PM »

Our dedicated moderator has some pics of the STARS TDW at BVI here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/j.e.herman/JDSATCMedia#

It includes a nice shot of the Display Control Panel (DCP), the ABC Keyboard and trackball, and a closeup of the full VFR map with lables selected.  They were taken before the equipment was comissioned so don't worry about the "WKST FAIL" Message on the TDM.  There's also a nice shot of the Pittsburgh Steelers' charter flight returning from Detroit with the Lombardi trophy after winning Superbowl XL.
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Regards
JD
djmodifyd
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2009, 09:21:14 PM »

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/vitual-tour-of-my-tower/

here you guys go, sorry to hijack this thread...
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madHATR
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2009, 01:39:55 PM »

Dig the pictures DJ, thanks!

I'm a USAF controller. BAK-14s are definitely my friends. You guys have a guard unit out at KDSM right?

Gotta love the touch-screen lighting panels. I still haven't had the opportunity to work with one... the last panel I worked with so bad that a WS shocked himself trying to kick on the SFLs.
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djmodifyd
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2009, 03:40:37 PM »

Dig the pictures DJ, thanks!

I'm a USAF controller. BAK-14s are definitely my friends. You guys have a guard unit out at KDSM right?

Gotta love the touch-screen lighting panels. I still haven't had the opportunity to work with one... the last panel I worked with so bad that a WS shocked himself trying to kick on the SFLs.

ah ok...yea, we have a guard unit with 20 or so F16's stationed here...and we get occasional C17's, C130's, KC35's and so fourth.

the touch-screen is alright, its really finicky...sometimes it takes 3 or 4 presses for it to respond..but it is nice to just hit the visablilty and have the lights set themselves
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captray
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2009, 03:54:11 PM »

Holy Buckets!
Here's my take on the subject. You departed IFR, You decided to return, it technically wasn't VFR. If you could see the runway and maintain it visually, land the damn aircraft and worry about the rules later.
Your first responsibility is the safe operation of the aircraft. (period)
File a NASA form absolutely!

Sometimes we all get caught up in the rules so much that we forget to fly the airplane.

OK I'm done preaching now....
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Cancel the IFR~!
djmodifyd
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2009, 05:02:37 PM »

Holy Buckets!
Here's my take on the subject. You departed IFR, You decided to return, it technically wasn't VFR. If you could see the runway and maintain it visually, land the damn aircraft and worry about the rules later.
Your first responsibility is the safe operation of the aircraft. (period)
File a NASA form absolutely!

Sometimes we all get caught up in the rules so much that we forget to fly the airplane.

OK I'm done preaching now....

that constitutes an "emergency"

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