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Author Topic: Jetblue pilots showboating @ SXM  (Read 34870 times)
iskyfly
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« on: April 11, 2012, 01:28:42 PM »



Name the questionable actions of the crew.
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Unbeliever
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 07:20:03 PM »

Other than using the blast pad (putting them closer to the fence) there's nothing wrong with doing a short field takeoff at that airport. Especially with the terrain at the other end of that runway.  That involves standing on the brakes, running up the engines until they're stable max thrust, and then letting go.

There's tons of warning signs that tell people not to do what they did (jet blast surfing), but as Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid".

--Carlos V.
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iskyfly
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 11:38:48 PM »

there's nothing wrong with doing a short field takeoff at that airport. Especially with the terrain at the other end of that runway.  That involves standing on the brakes, running up the engines until they're stable max thrust, and then letting go.
Is there such a thing as a short field takeoff in the POH for an A320 that describes what you mentioned?
 
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notaperfectpilot
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 06:18:46 PM »

Name the questionable actions of the crew.

what questionable actions of the crew?
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iskyfly
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 08:16:21 PM »


1- You don't taxi, takeoff, land, let alone hold, on the overrun- the area with the yellow chevrons painted on it. That area is not usable for takeoff or landing.

2 and 3 to come.

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iskyfly
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 09:47:37 AM »

2- Waving the elevators / horizontal stabilizer at the spectators (19 second mark).
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beechsundowner
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 01:12:09 PM »


1- You don't taxi, takeoff, land, let alone hold, on the overrun- the area with the yellow chevrons painted on it. That area is not usable for takeoff or landing.

Not always.......  If you say always, you are flat out wrong....   Qualify this statement and I would agree.
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iskyfly
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 03:06:04 PM »


1- You don't taxi, takeoff, land, let alone hold, on the overrun- the area with the yellow chevrons painted on it. That area is not usable for takeoff or landing.

Not always.......  If you say always, you are flat out wrong....   Qualify this statement and I would agree.
For starters, the section / chapter titled "Airport Operations" in your PHoAK is your friend.

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beechsundowner
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 03:13:45 PM »

For starters, the section / chapter titled "Airport Operations" in your PHoAK is your friend.

HINT......  I fly by FARS not by airport operations of whatever you are talking about.  

Out of respect to the forums as this entire thread isn't related to ATC or communications, I will even tell you the answer rather than let this get out of hand from your lack of understanding of real world flying.  Final answer....

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/e63bbedc3044a110852566cf00612076!OpenDocument
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 03:17:20 PM by beechsundowner » Logged

iskyfly
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2012, 03:54:31 PM »

For starters, the section / chapter titled "Airport Operations" in your PHoAK is your friend.

HINT......  I fly by FARS not by airport operations of whatever you are talking about.
You never read the PHoAK during ground school? That is hard to believe. It's not too late though. These days you can get it for free off of the FAA's website (the same people behind the FAR's).

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Out of respect to the forums as this entire thread isn't related to ATC or communications,

"This is a place for pilots and air traffic controllers to discuss airspace issues, local procedures, general safety issues, training and anything else of interest to both pilots and controllers."

You see, among other things, this is a safety and training issue. I don't believe it is unreasonable for a discussion to be had regarding issues of safety and procedure so that we can all learn to be better and safer pilots.

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I will even tell you the answer rather than let this get out of hand from your lack of understanding of real world flying. 
I say again, calm down. This is a discussion forum.

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So which one of these applies to this Jetblue event?

Do you really need every discussion prefaced by a disclaimer that the book goes out the window during an emergency?
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notaperfectpilot
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2012, 04:31:08 PM »

there is no such thing as the "PHoAK"



* FAA search.JPG (50.61 KB, 801x527 - viewed 1148 times.)
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JetScan1
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2012, 04:44:08 PM »

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2- Waving the elevators / horizontal stabilizer at the spectators (19 second mark).

rolleyes

« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 04:56:13 PM by JetScan1 » Logged
martyj19
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2012, 05:26:16 PM »

May I point out that the airport at which this happened is in the Netherlands Antilles and is not subject to American regulations.  There may be a local MOU about takeoff procedure that applies, as well.

As I pointed out on another forum, I do not think the video is particularly conclusive as to the path taken by the aircraft being or not being over the blast pad area.  Also, as I pointed out there, and having personally visited this airport, every takeoff is done as a short field takeoff and a quick departure turn due to a significant obstruction off the departure end.  I would disagree somewhat with the characterization that the crew is showboating since this is the ordinary practice at this airfield.

Here is a photograph from Airliners.net on short final so everyone is on the same page as to what it looks like:

http://www.airliners.net/photo//1353357/L/

I am terribly sorry that the young lady was injured, but there are warning signs posted about not doing this, and it does happen day after day after day that heavy iron spools to takeoff power on that spot.


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martyj19
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2012, 07:10:31 PM »

Here's the link for what has been referred to as the "PHoAK"

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/
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iskyfly
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 07:43:08 PM »

May I point out that the airport at which this happened is in the Netherlands Antilles and is not subject to American regulations.  There may be a local MOU about takeoff procedure that applies, as well.
Imagine for a minute if international air crew had to know not only their base country regs, but the regs of every country they flew to? Thats where ICAO comes in. Member states (such as SXM) follow ICAO. When flying outside the US, ICAO rules prevail. The use of chevrons to identify blast pads is the same for ICAO member states as it is for the US.

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  Also, as I pointed out there, and having personally visited this airport, every takeoff is done as a short field takeoff and a quick departure turn due to a significant obstruction off the departure end.
As I asked before- Is there such a thing as a short field takeoff in the POH for an A320 that describes what you mentioned?

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I would disagree somewhat with the characterization that the crew is showboating since this is the ordinary practice at this airfield.
I would disagree that the use of blast pads for takeoff is an ordinary practice. There is a reason why it is called a blast pad and there is a reason why blast pads are defined as areas not usable for takeoff and landing.


(oh, and just for sunny- except in emergencies).
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mikenftsmith
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2012, 07:51:58 PM »

2- Waving the elevators / horizontal stabilizer at the spectators (19 second mark).

Part of the pre takeoff checklist of all aircraft is too check free movement of the elevators. All "real world" pilots know this.
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iskyfly
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2012, 08:30:45 PM »

2- Waving the elevators / horizontal stabilizer at the spectators (19 second mark).

Part of the pre takeoff checklist of all aircraft is too check free movement of the elevators. All "real world" pilots know this.
And if you had any clue, the checking of flight controls is done prior to the runway hold line. It is not done in the seconds prior to takeoff while you are lined up ON the runway.

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/safety_library_items/AirbusSafetyLib_-FLT_OPS-RWY_OPS_SEQ01.pdf
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Before-takeoff check list completion before moving into the active runway is
required to avoid holding time on the active runway,

LOL! This is not an aircraft carrier take off!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 08:43:07 PM by iskyfly » Logged
martyj19
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« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2012, 09:40:34 AM »

Well, yes, it is necessary to know the regulations for every country that you fly to.  This is why commercial crews get checked out on routes before they are put in command on them.  Another example would be, I happen to live in the USA not far from Canada, and people from here fly to Canada on a pretty regular basis.  If for example I did not know about the differences in when a radio license is required for my aircraft radio, I might be in a severe bind.  I also need to be scrupulous about knowing the aircraft-related Customs procedures or I may have my trip spoiled by being detained and/or fined at the border.  This is not something that is prescribed by ICAO.

Another example would be the differences in transition altitude (the altitude above where Flight Levels start, and everyone is set to standard altimeter.)  In the USA this is uniformly 18000 MSL.  In Europe it is as low as a few thousand feet and varies from area to area.  You can bet that a commercial crew flying from JFK to Munich will know about this difference in regulations.

The ICAO does not control a cubic metre of airspace or manage any airports.  It is a standards organization.  In order for its standards to have any effect they must be adopted by the national agency that actually controls the airspace.  They may or may not be fully adopted in a particular setting.  This is not unlike the situation with building codes.  A recent example is how the USA recently adopted the Line Up and Wait phraseology replacing the Position and Hold phraseology that was in use.  You are discussing a laid-back island airport in the Caribbean with a somewhat challenging approach and departure (although it is not as challenging as, say, St. Barts) and whose governing authority in the Netherlands may not take these standards as seriously or enforce them as rigorously as you might like.

Once again it would be really good if you would share your experience.  You are very good at posting links to regulations and taking a highly legalistic position on them, that I will grant.  But unless you are an FAA Inspector who can ramp check me or violate me, or a CFII that I might hire, I am not planning to give your opinion much weight or engage further.

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iskyfly
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« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2012, 10:36:53 AM »

This is not something that is prescribed by ICAO.
SXM is an ICAO airport that has a blast pad that per definition is not usable for taxi, takeoff and landing.

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You are discussing a laid-back island airport in the Caribbean with a somewhat challenging approach and departure (although it is not as challenging as, say, St. Barts) and whose governing authority in the Netherlands may not take these standards as seriously or enforce them as rigorously as you might like.
It has nothing to do with what I like. Regulations are regulations. One may get away with disregarding them but aside from the safety consequences of acting reckless, when the cameras are on and something like this happens, somebody is going to notice.


Ask yourself this- why did a 20+ page thread about the crew's showboating get locked AND deleted?
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/66639-jet-blue-jet-blast-thread.html

Is it likely that all this attention has put the crew in hot water?

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/jetblue-owning-some-chick.139300/
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Exactly. They taxied back onto the chevrons. And not just a little ways back. They had to make a very concerted effort to get that far back on the runway. Yes, the chick (and anyone that hangs onto the fence) is asking for whatever happens, but the crew is just as responsible here.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/jetblue-owning-some-chick.139300/page-2
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The chevrons are there to keep this kind of thing from happening, warning signs or not. I've spent MANY hours at the Sunset Beach Bar & Grill, and not ONCE have I seen anyone get blown off the fence like these people did. Even the KLM 747 or Air France A340 doing static takeoffs from the actual runway threshold don't pose the threat that this A320 did from the area marked with chevrons.

 Unfortunately, in places like St Maarten where we (pilots) operate aircraft in close proximity to the general public, the onus is on us to make every effort to mitigate the risk to those that are too dumb to have regard for their surroundings. Again...warning signs or not.

 If anything, the girl AND the crew share the blame.


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I am not planning to give your opinion much weight or engage further.
We'll see.
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notaperfectpilot
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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2012, 06:37:26 AM »

I am in no position to analyze any aspect of the given scenario.
Ok, so in other words, you do not have anything useful to contribute to this thread?
Got it.




well, given that StuSEL has a Private Pilot License, a ASEL-IA, and is an air traffic controller, I would say that he has a lot more useful things to contribute to this thread then YOU do because you have none of those (or at least won't say so) and lack completely any experience.
ok, got it!
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beechsundowner
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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 08:32:44 AM »

[Ok, so in other words, you do not have anything useful to contribute to this thread?
Got it.

No, quite frankly he is saying from your lack of real world experience, you have not had anything useful to contribute to the safety of our air system or even flying an airplane.  You cut StuSEL's  part out about mentiong this point.

Here is why I say this.  If you think the hold short line is a place where safety stops on checking controls are free and clear or ANY before takeoff check list items, you are sadly mistaken.   Lots of things can happen from the first control free and clear check and the time one taxi's out to the active runway.  

Co-pilot / passenger could have shifted their legs in such a way where they obstruct the yoke / rudders.  My knee pad could have shifted such a way to obstruct the yoke.  The yoke clip holding departure procedures / approach plates could have shifted in such a way to obstruct the yoke (getting tangled on the external mic coiled wire).

The above three examples have happened to me in the real world.  So if you see me waving my elevator and call it show boating so be it, but one can never "trust but verify" enough when it comes to flying an airplane.  This only shows your lack of experience in aviation.

Finally, PIC DECIDES when items are to be checked and RE-CHECKED, not the hold short line.  Once I cross the hold short line to take off, I am expected to depart without undue delay.  Nothing says I can't do safety checks like check controls, check DG to ensure it matches the runway heading while I am on the active runway.

I've said in the 8th reply of this thread that this topic you posted is off topic for these forums and seems like others are coming around to my way of thinking.  Really time to get this thread shut down so my email alerts will go back to normal.

(edited to add enough to sentence with trust and verify)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:19:34 AM by beechsundowner » Logged

iskyfly
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 10:05:50 AM »

[Ok, so in other words, you do not have anything useful to contribute to this thread?
Got it.

No, quite frankly he is saying  
Let Stu speak for himself. He is an adult.

(Deleted irrelevant part where you are comparing bugsmasher ops to big jet ops).

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I've said in the 8th reply of this thread that this topic you posted is off topic for these forums and seems like others are coming around to my way of thinking.
Well, that is something for the mods of this forum to decide and if it was off topic, I think something would have been done about it by now. But as Stu said-
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If you want to be the off-topic police, be aware that you are posting in a forum designated for "pilots and air traffic controllers to discuss airspace issues, local procedures, general safety issues, training and anything else of interest to both pilots and controllers.

I agree that your childish behavior- derogatory comments, name calling is off-topic and also a violation of forum rules.
 
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Really time to get this thread shut down so my email alerts will go back to normal.
Perhaps adjust your alerts, or don't participate (nobody is forcing you to) unless you have something to contribute in an adult like fashion.

So far, we have had several claims that running up the engines to full power while standing on the brakes is standard short field take off procedure for an A320. I have yet to see any credible citations that attests to this.

We see the crew waving the elevator during this extended engine run up. As I have cited before using official Airbus documentation "Before-takeoff check list completion before moving into the active runway is
required to avoid holding time on the active runway". To argue that there is another way is to say disregard the checklist and training and do as you feel (oh, and just for you sunny- in a non emergency situation).

This isn't an aircraft carrier cat shot where you go into afterburner, check the controls, salute and launch.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:09:14 AM by iskyfly » Logged
beechsundowner
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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 10:23:20 AM »

(Deleted irrelevant part where you are comparing bugsmasher ops to big jet ops).

For the readership sake, what is your REAL WORLD experiences in big jet ops for you to make comparisons? 

I don't make comparisons in my posts between GA and commecial ops, I posted real world situations that justify checking controls free and clear beyond the hold short line that can extend into the commercial ops.  There is nothing in ANY POH that prohibits this.

What are your REAL world qualifications in aviation to make judgement on other pilot actions? 

If history repeats itself, you won't answer.  And if you don't answer, that only gives verification for others to judge your lack of credibility beyond the length of your arm. (reading books and watching videos)
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StuSEL
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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2012, 11:06:46 AM »

For the record, I'm not an ATC yet, but I am in the long-winded process of becoming one. But yes, beechsundowner, I am an instrument-rated private pilot.

iskyfly, I just copied and pasted the forum description. I certainly didn't call you any names.


* screen2.jpg (39.87 KB, 820x87 - viewed 1517 times.)
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iskyfly
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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2012, 11:24:01 AM »

Beech-
I think people can come to their own conclusions without your help. Right now it seems you are obsessed and hell bent on character assassination rather than choosing to discuss this thread's topic. What is your purpose in this thread if it is not to discuss what was mentioned in the original post? You need to examine your motivations for participating in a thread that you claim should be locked because of all the email notifications you are receiving. I have given you a suggestion on how to deal with that. Let me give you another one- ignore.

You are veering off course again. So let me help you back on track;


So far, we have had several claims that running up the engines to full power while standing on the brakes is standard short field take off procedure for an A320. I have yet to see any credible citations that attests to this.

I would be obliged if you can show me the shortfield takeoff procedure for an A320. Easier still- Do you even know what the takeoff procedure for an A320 is?

We see the crew waving the elevator during this extended engine run up. As I have cited before using official Airbus documentation "Before-takeoff check list completion before moving into the active runway is
required to avoid holding time on the active runway". To argue that there is another way is to say disregard the checklist and training and do as you feel (oh, and just for you sunny- in a non emergency situation).

This isn't an aircraft carrier cat shot where you go into afterburner, check the controls, salute and launch.
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