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Author Topic: New Public ATC Application Out  (Read 28469 times)
atcman23
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« on: July 07, 2009, 10:17:59 AM »

Just an FYI:

The FAA released a new public application yesterday for Air Traffic Control Specialists.  This is the public application, meaning anyone that is 30 years old or younger and a U.S. Citizen can apply "off-the-street" without prior experience.

Here is the link to the posting on USAJOBS:

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=81982627&JobTitle=Air+Traffic+Control+Specialist&sort=rv%2c-dtex&jbf522=2152&vw=d&re=134&FedEmp=N&FedPub=Y&caller=series.aspx&AVSDM=2009-07-06+00%3a13%3a00
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Mark Spencer
wannabeatc
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 06:53:57 PM »

am i allowed to apply if im an incoming college senior? i have the 3 years of school + every summer for 3 years i've worked full time. I can combine the two? 

i've been patiently waiting for this to come out! I know for a fact that it takes a long time to get selected to take the test.
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atcman23
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 09:11:22 PM »

Yeah the 3 years can either be all college credits, all general work experience or a combination of both.  I'd say you would have the experience with just the college coursework but be sure to double check and keep in mind that semester and quarter hours hold different values.

Basically what happens is they ask for your work and school history and as long as you have "experience" within the past three years, you're good to go.

It's good to hear that you are patient, as they won't select from this application until the end of this year and you'll be lucky to get an AT-SAT date sometime early next year.  From there, you'll do more waiting and then hopefully you'll get a PEPC interview.

Best of luck!
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Mark Spencer
wannabeatc
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 11:58:44 PM »

just applied..we'll see what happens.

for the geographical preferences what's up with the international locations? do they really put people overseas?
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atcman23
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 09:30:03 AM »

No those would be U.S. territories such as Guam.  I've never heard of them placing people over there.

Quick question for you though --  did they allow you to select locations you were interested in?  I know on that application, that's something that they might have changed recently.

When I did the Public Application (PUBNAT4), they allowed you to select 5 locations you were interested by state and down to the area the airport was located in without naming it (or them) but 6 months later they e-mailed me a link to select up to 5 states I would like to work in.  But I got in through the CTI application so the other one went out the window anyway.

Good luck to you! Smiley
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Mark Spencer
sykocus
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 09:47:15 AM »

just applied..we'll see what happens.

for the geographical preferences what's up with the international locations? do they really put people overseas?

You mean Guam and Puerto Rico? Kwajalein might be on the list too, but the FAA doesn't staff that anymore. Those are not international. In fact they are often referred to as "non-foreign overseas locations", along with other territories, Alaska and Hawaii.


No those would be U.S. territories such as Guam.  I've never heard of them placing people over there.

They have and do.
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wannabeatc
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 11:42:59 AM »

it was very strange because i saw places such as japan, Afghanistan, china, australia, and india just to name a few. also some european countries in the drop down list as well.
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atcman23
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 03:13:30 PM »

That's interesting.  I'm not sure why they are listed then.
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 02:49:00 PM »

what airport are you ATC at?
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atcman23
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 05:22:40 PM »

I was offered Cleveland (KCLE) but I am awaiting training at OKC (still need a date yet).  I was selected off of the CTI Application since I graduated from a CTI school.
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Mark Spencer
wannabeatc
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 01:42:46 AM »

how long has it been since you applied? i want to have a "reference point"

some other questions i have:

Does everyone get selected to take the ATC test? Any guides that i can study or practice questions?

i know the application process takes a long time, but i don't graduate & finish my degree till next june. if i happen to get selected earlier then that can i postpone the okc training start date? is there a bit of leeway on that?
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atcman23
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 09:18:06 AM »

I applied on 2 applications:

I applied "off-the-street" for PUBNAT4 in late June, 2008.

I applied for the CTI application, which was the next CTI application after I graduated in late November, 2008.

I heard from the FAA on my CTI application on January 29th of this year.  Since I already took the AT-SAT while I was in school, my next step was the PEPC, which I attended on February 27th of this year.

The FAA reviews all applications and selects those that they think are qualified enough based on work/education experience and any additional skills that they listed on their application.  For those that they like, they then send you information about taking the AT-SAT and where you can go.  They simply don't select everyone because it costs roughly $800 tax dollars for each person who takes the test.

There is one good guide I would recommend.  It contains a lot of information about becoming an ATC and includes a CD with practice questions and scenarios you can use to practice.  It's called, Air Traffic Control Career Prep: A Comprehensive Guide to One of the Best-Paying Federal Government Careers, Including Test Preparation for the Initial ATC Exams by Patrick Mattson.  You can find it on amazon here:

http://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Control-Career-Prep-Comprehensive/dp/1560276142/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247663325&sr=8-1

It is a great resource to use and I recommend it to everyone who wants to pursue ATC.

As for your last question, it is really hard to say.  I know that they held off a classmate of mine when I was in school for about a month while he finished up school.  They were attending CTI school as well and applied off the street before he started school and ended up getting selected.  Since they were almost done with school, they set him up to attend OKC a month later once they were done with school.  So it just depends on the situation but given that, I would say they will work with you to an extent.  I think you'll be OK at this point since selections for this application aren't made until the end of this year and you'll have to take the AT-SAT, pass it with an 80% or better, then the FAA has to review it and then based upon that, they'll make their selections for people to attend a PEPC for further consideration.  It's not a quick process so you have time yet.  And once the PEPC is done, they take at least a month to review everything and make a decision, but it just depends on how much of a background you have.

Hope this helps!  Keep in mind the application deadline is this Friday, July 17th!
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Mark Spencer
wannabeatc
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 04:40:25 PM »

thanks for the reply. I have already applied. should i get the guide book now? i don't even know if im going to be selected to take the test.

seems weird that they're putting out the application only for a couple weeks. i bet alot of people who want to apply will miss out. good thing i checked here. 

do you happen know the percentage of applicants who get selected for the next phase?


sorry that I have a lot of questions hope you don't mind.
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atcman23
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 05:28:14 PM »

It's not a problem.  Getting the book is your discretion, honestly there's no guarantee that you'll get selected.  If you want to wait until you do to get the book, that is fine as you'll have a little bit of notice of the test date.

Typically this is the case with the public application.  I have heard that they get a lot of applicants and the FAA started advertising the application on websites like Monster, Hot Jobs, Faceboo, My Space and others, along with radio and TV spots in select regions.

As for the percentage that go on, there's really no exact number.  However, a class I was in during school did speculate this:

We assumed that 10,000 people applied for the position and roughly half of them were eligible for the AT-SAT.  ($800 x 5,000 = $4,000,000)

Of those who took the AT-SAT, roughly half of them were qualified for the position (2,500)

Those that went on to attend the PEPC, half of them were qualified enough to be considered for positions (1,250)

Most of those left either turned down positions/facilities for others or had lost desire to actually continue since the process is so long... we assumed 1/4 of the 1,250 (1,250-312 = 938)

Those that were left went on to OKC and at least half either dropped out or gave up (469)

Those went on to their facilities and around 75% did not make it through training at their facility (352 lost... 469-352= 117)

Again, we speculated this... none of this is likely accurate but gives us an idea that most who apply don't make it.  However, keep in mind that there are many that apply with some knowledge or experience in the field and those people have a greater chance of getting through.
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Mark Spencer
sykocus
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 06:22:21 PM »

As for the percentage that go on, there's really no exact number.  However, a class I was in during school did speculate this:

We assumed that 10,000 people applied for the position and roughly half of them were eligible for the AT-SAT.  ($800 x 5,000 = $4,000,000)

Of those who took the AT-SAT, roughly half of them were qualified for the position (2,500)

Those that went on to attend the PEPC, half of them were qualified enough to be considered for positions (1,250)

Most of those left either turned down positions/facilities for others or had lost desire to actually continue since the process is so long... we assumed 1/4 of the 1,250 (1,250-312 = 938)

Those that were left went on to OKC and at least half either dropped out or gave up (469)

Those went on to their facilities and around 75% did not make it through training at their facility (352 lost... 469-352= 117)

Again, we speculated this... none of this is likely accurate but gives us an idea that most who apply don't make it.  However, keep in mind that there are many that apply with some knowledge or experience in the field and those people have a greater chance of getting through.

Having been though both the enroute and and RTF programs at OKC I can tell you that at the very least your last two figures you have for dropouts are way too high. One of the war stories the "old timers" will tell about going though school was back in the 80's was being told on the first day of class that the fail rate was 50%. This was due to the rules in place keeping instructors from spending extra time with individuals or even on concepts the entire class was having difficulty picking up. Now the program is much different. When I was going though enroute the most I ever saw from a class not make it was 3. Which was less then 25% of the typical class size. Most classes had 1 or 2 failures with quite a few having none. RTF wasn't even pass/fail. Out of those of from my class that made it out of enroute (all but 1) 1 failed to make it past a-side training, 2 quit, and 1 didn't get fully qualified, but only in the busiest sector of her area so she will probably get another chance at a less busy facility. That's only about a 1/3rd, even if you count the last case.
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atcman23
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 07:59:47 PM »

That's cool... it's good to hear that dropout rates are not as high as they used to be.  As I mentioned we speculated on this subject one day and it was primarily for those who were hired off-the-street- and we assumed those people knew nothing about controlling.  So yeah they probably are high however, it's also good to hear that instructors are now helping a bit more than they used to.

Thanks for the additional information! Smiley
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Mark Spencer
ogogog
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2009, 04:44:30 PM »

As for the percentage that go on, there's really no exact number.  However, a class I was in during school did speculate this:

We assumed that 10,000 people applied for the position and roughly half of them were eligible for the AT-SAT.  ($800 x 5,000 = $4,000,000)

Of those who took the AT-SAT, roughly half of them were qualified for the position (2,500)

Those that went on to attend the PEPC, half of them were qualified enough to be considered for positions (1,250)

Most of those left either turned down positions/facilities for others or had lost desire to actually continue since the process is so long... we assumed 1/4 of the 1,250 (1,250-312 = 938)

Those that were left went on to OKC and at least half either dropped out or gave up (469)

Those went on to their facilities and around 75% did not make it through training at their facility (352 lost... 469-352= 117)

Again, we speculated this... none of this is likely accurate but gives us an idea that most who apply don't make it.  However, keep in mind that there are many that apply with some knowledge or experience in the field and those people have a greater chance of getting through.

Having been though both the enroute and and RTF programs at OKC I can tell you that at the very least your last two figures you have for dropouts are way too high. One of the war stories the "old timers" will tell about going though school was back in the 80's was being told on the first day of class that the fail rate was 50%. This was due to the rules in place keeping instructors from spending extra time with individuals or even on concepts the entire class was having difficulty picking up. Now the program is much different. When I was going though enroute the most I ever saw from a class not make it was 3. Which was less then 25% of the typical class size. Most classes had 1 or 2 failures with quite a few having none. RTF wasn't even pass/fail. Out of those of from my class that made it out of enroute (all but 1) 1 failed to make it past a-side training, 2 quit, and 1 didn't get fully qualified, but only in the busiest sector of her area so she will probably get another chance at a less busy facility. That's only about a 1/3rd, even if you count the last case.


the enroute class of 4/4/1984 started with 120 in class and ended up with only 55  i know i was there, so its no old timer story.OKC is a joke 55% of the VRA/CTI/OTS are washing out of C90, and thats after they go through a 3 months  in house training in what wasnt taught in OKC.
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sykocus
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2009, 05:47:12 PM »

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean old timer as in the story was over embellished over the years. I was just describing the way the class was run during previous hiring blitz of the early 1980's vs. the current one. 
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w0x0f
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2009, 05:20:26 PM »

The screening process is now conducted in the field.  It had to be done this way because the hiring process was frozen for several years.  The reason no one was hired is because a new labor agreement needed to be in place (imposed) to cut the pay of new hires by 30%.  That couldn't be done until September 2006 when the contract negotiations came to impasse. 

It normally took 3-5 years to fully certify at busier ATC facilities.  That means that hiring should have begun in 2001 to compensate for controllers retiring in 2006 (1981 strike + 25 years service for early retirement = 2006) 

Everything is 5 years behind, so how do you compensate?  You need to create the illusion that hiring needs are being met by throwing as many new hires into the system as possible.  Look Congress, we hired 1700 "controllers" last year.  A proper screen in OKC would not allow those numbers. 

What else can we do?  Split facilities to create the illusion that we have more certified controllers than we did last week.  This was done in Orlando and Memphis and is being contemplated in other facilities.

The really bad thing is that this new way of screening trainees is using real people in real airplanes.  This was all done before in a safer, simulated environment.  As ogogog said, they are losing 55% of the new hires at C90.  It is even worse at N90.  So it will actually cost more to get certified controllers under this system and the question of safety is a major concern.

That's what you get when you try to do it with smoke and mirrors.     
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ogogog
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2009, 08:10:18 AM »

The screening process is now conducted in the field.  It had to be done this way because the hiring process was frozen for several years.  The reason no one was hired is because a new labor agreement needed to be in place (imposed) to cut the pay of new hires by 30%.  That couldn't be done until September 2006 when the contract negotiations came to impasse. 

It normally took 3-5 years to fully certify at busier ATC facilities.  That means that hiring should have begun in 2001 to compensate for controllers retiring in 2006 (1981 strike + 25 years service for early retirement = 2006) 

Everything is 5 years behind, so how do you compensate?  You need to create the illusion that hiring needs are being met by throwing as many new hires into the system as possible.  Look Congress, we hired 1700 "controllers" last year.  A proper screen in OKC would not allow those numbers. 

What else can we do?  Split facilities to create the illusion that we have more certified controllers than we did last week.  This was done in Orlando and Memphis and is being contemplated in other facilities.

The really bad thing is that this new way of screening trainees is using real people in real airplanes.  This was all done before in a safer, simulated environment.  As ogogog said, they are losing 55% of the new hires at C90.  It is even worse at N90.  So it will actually cost more to get certified controllers under this system and the question of safety is a major concern.

That's what you get when you try to do it with smoke and mirrors.     


AMEN Brother ,the wash out rate is 50 to 60 %, just because 95% of the ots are getting out of OKC means most will washout in the field wasting MORE TIME and MONEY  than getting rid of those folks on a real screen, like we had 25 years ago.

OG
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atcman23
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2009, 08:43:02 AM »

It is sad to see tax payer money getting flushed down the FAA's very large toilet.  And it's worse to see safety being compromised.
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2009, 01:29:07 PM »

4/19/88. Started initial screen with 304 others. 2 months later, 150 passed... less than 50%. Arrived at first duty station with 12 others. 1 year later, 5 remained... again, less than 50%. Now 20 years later, no idea how many are left! The screen used to be the litmus test to see if you could do the job. Now it is used to see if you can follow directions and to make a good show to congress that the FAA is ahead of the curve on the hiring. (Oh, that is soooo funny!)
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icissel
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2009, 11:30:49 PM »

noooo!!!!!! is this application closed now i have been looking for the posting....apparently in all of the wrong places and just came across this thread

please let me know
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atcman23
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2009, 06:46:12 AM »

Yeah sorry it's closed now.  Just keep an eye out on the USAJOBS website for futre postings.  Unfortunately it's hard to say when they'll release the next Public App.  My best guess is sometime next year. Sad
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Mark Spencer
wannabeatc
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2009, 02:05:26 AM »

i logged into my ASAP account today and to my surprise i got the following message

"You have been authorized to take the AT-SAT test for announcement AAC-AMH-09-PUBNAT8-12162. You will be contacted within a few weeks to schedule the test. "

really? that fast??
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