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Author Topic: New Public ATC Application Out  (Read 17440 times)
atcman23
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 07:59:47 PM »

That's cool... it's good to hear that dropout rates are not as high as they used to be.  As I mentioned we speculated on this subject one day and it was primarily for those who were hired off-the-street- and we assumed those people knew nothing about controlling.  So yeah they probably are high however, it's also good to hear that instructors are now helping a bit more than they used to.

Thanks for the additional information! Smiley
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Mark Spencer
ogogog
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2009, 04:44:30 PM »

As for the percentage that go on, there's really no exact number.  However, a class I was in during school did speculate this:

We assumed that 10,000 people applied for the position and roughly half of them were eligible for the AT-SAT.  ($800 x 5,000 = $4,000,000)

Of those who took the AT-SAT, roughly half of them were qualified for the position (2,500)

Those that went on to attend the PEPC, half of them were qualified enough to be considered for positions (1,250)

Most of those left either turned down positions/facilities for others or had lost desire to actually continue since the process is so long... we assumed 1/4 of the 1,250 (1,250-312 = 938)

Those that were left went on to OKC and at least half either dropped out or gave up (469)

Those went on to their facilities and around 75% did not make it through training at their facility (352 lost... 469-352= 117)

Again, we speculated this... none of this is likely accurate but gives us an idea that most who apply don't make it.  However, keep in mind that there are many that apply with some knowledge or experience in the field and those people have a greater chance of getting through.

Having been though both the enroute and and RTF programs at OKC I can tell you that at the very least your last two figures you have for dropouts are way too high. One of the war stories the "old timers" will tell about going though school was back in the 80's was being told on the first day of class that the fail rate was 50%. This was due to the rules in place keeping instructors from spending extra time with individuals or even on concepts the entire class was having difficulty picking up. Now the program is much different. When I was going though enroute the most I ever saw from a class not make it was 3. Which was less then 25% of the typical class size. Most classes had 1 or 2 failures with quite a few having none. RTF wasn't even pass/fail. Out of those of from my class that made it out of enroute (all but 1) 1 failed to make it past a-side training, 2 quit, and 1 didn't get fully qualified, but only in the busiest sector of her area so she will probably get another chance at a less busy facility. That's only about a 1/3rd, even if you count the last case.


the enroute class of 4/4/1984 started with 120 in class and ended up with only 55  i know i was there, so its no old timer story.OKC is a joke 55% of the VRA/CTI/OTS are washing out of C90, and thats after they go through a 3 months  in house training in what wasnt taught in OKC.
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sykocus
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2009, 05:47:12 PM »

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean old timer as in the story was over embellished over the years. I was just describing the way the class was run during previous hiring blitz of the early 1980's vs. the current one. 
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Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
w0x0f
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2009, 05:20:26 PM »

The screening process is now conducted in the field.  It had to be done this way because the hiring process was frozen for several years.  The reason no one was hired is because a new labor agreement needed to be in place (imposed) to cut the pay of new hires by 30%.  That couldn't be done until September 2006 when the contract negotiations came to impasse. 

It normally took 3-5 years to fully certify at busier ATC facilities.  That means that hiring should have begun in 2001 to compensate for controllers retiring in 2006 (1981 strike + 25 years service for early retirement = 2006) 

Everything is 5 years behind, so how do you compensate?  You need to create the illusion that hiring needs are being met by throwing as many new hires into the system as possible.  Look Congress, we hired 1700 "controllers" last year.  A proper screen in OKC would not allow those numbers. 

What else can we do?  Split facilities to create the illusion that we have more certified controllers than we did last week.  This was done in Orlando and Memphis and is being contemplated in other facilities.

The really bad thing is that this new way of screening trainees is using real people in real airplanes.  This was all done before in a safer, simulated environment.  As ogogog said, they are losing 55% of the new hires at C90.  It is even worse at N90.  So it will actually cost more to get certified controllers under this system and the question of safety is a major concern.

That's what you get when you try to do it with smoke and mirrors.     
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ogogog
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2009, 08:10:18 AM »

The screening process is now conducted in the field.  It had to be done this way because the hiring process was frozen for several years.  The reason no one was hired is because a new labor agreement needed to be in place (imposed) to cut the pay of new hires by 30%.  That couldn't be done until September 2006 when the contract negotiations came to impasse. 

It normally took 3-5 years to fully certify at busier ATC facilities.  That means that hiring should have begun in 2001 to compensate for controllers retiring in 2006 (1981 strike + 25 years service for early retirement = 2006) 

Everything is 5 years behind, so how do you compensate?  You need to create the illusion that hiring needs are being met by throwing as many new hires into the system as possible.  Look Congress, we hired 1700 "controllers" last year.  A proper screen in OKC would not allow those numbers. 

What else can we do?  Split facilities to create the illusion that we have more certified controllers than we did last week.  This was done in Orlando and Memphis and is being contemplated in other facilities.

The really bad thing is that this new way of screening trainees is using real people in real airplanes.  This was all done before in a safer, simulated environment.  As ogogog said, they are losing 55% of the new hires at C90.  It is even worse at N90.  So it will actually cost more to get certified controllers under this system and the question of safety is a major concern.

That's what you get when you try to do it with smoke and mirrors.     


AMEN Brother ,the wash out rate is 50 to 60 %, just because 95% of the ots are getting out of OKC means most will washout in the field wasting MORE TIME and MONEY  than getting rid of those folks on a real screen, like we had 25 years ago.

OG
EGVJ/KDMA/ZAU/C90
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atcman23
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2009, 08:43:02 AM »

It is sad to see tax payer money getting flushed down the FAA's very large toilet.  And it's worse to see safety being compromised.
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2009, 01:29:07 PM »

4/19/88. Started initial screen with 304 others. 2 months later, 150 passed... less than 50%. Arrived at first duty station with 12 others. 1 year later, 5 remained... again, less than 50%. Now 20 years later, no idea how many are left! The screen used to be the litmus test to see if you could do the job. Now it is used to see if you can follow directions and to make a good show to congress that the FAA is ahead of the curve on the hiring. (Oh, that is soooo funny!)
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icissel
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2009, 11:30:49 PM »

noooo!!!!!! is this application closed now i have been looking for the posting....apparently in all of the wrong places and just came across this thread

please let me know
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atcman23
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2009, 06:46:12 AM »

Yeah sorry it's closed now.  Just keep an eye out on the USAJOBS website for futre postings.  Unfortunately it's hard to say when they'll release the next Public App.  My best guess is sometime next year. Sad
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Mark Spencer
wannabeatc
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2009, 02:05:26 AM »

i logged into my ASAP account today and to my surprise i got the following message

"You have been authorized to take the AT-SAT test for announcement AAC-AMH-09-PUBNAT8-12162. You will be contacted within a few weeks to schedule the test. "

really? that fast??
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atcman23
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2009, 09:04:52 AM »

Congrats!  Sounds like you'll be one of the first groups to take the test for FY2010.  I'm not sure how long, exactly, they'll take to contact you but you'll probably have to travel to go take it.

In the meantime, if you can, I'd highly suggest purchasing this book if you don't already own it:

"Air Traffic Control Career Prep: A Comprehensive Guide to One of the Best-Paying Federal Government Careers, Including Test Preparation for the Initial ATC Exams" by Patrick Mattson.

This is probably the best book available to help you get started with the career and actually spells out what the process is like (to a degree, the process always changes though).  The most important part of this book is the CD.  They give you a practice exam for the AT-SAT.  While it is not exactly what the AT-SAT will look like or how it will operate, it's close enough.  I'd suggest picking it up and taking a look at it before you take the exam.  While the FAA will tell you you do not need to study for anything, it is very helpful to have studied.

You can get the book on Amazon.com here: http://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Control-Career-Prep-Comprehensive/dp/1560276142/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250946058&sr=8-1

Good luck! Smiley
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Mark Spencer
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