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Author Topic: Question for ATC in the NYC area (JFK)  (Read 10369 times)
jim_in_nh
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« on: May 12, 2009, 06:51:15 AM »

Hi there,

I'm planning a trip into JFK in my single engine plane to pick-up an arriving relative, then going on to a short vacation.  I was planning to file IFR in and out, but I have a few questions.

1. Would ATC rather I be an IFR or VFR flight, if I have the option?  Is it easier for you one way or the other?

2. I'll be departing to KELM.  After reviewing the Kennedy One SID, I was going to file  SAX COATE V116 LHY ....  Is that the best way out, or is there another route I should file?

3. If the winds are very light, (<5 kts), I could safely operate on one of the perpendicular runways.  Is that kind of thing helpful to you folks, or would you just rather sequence me in with everyone else?  Speed on approach will be about 115kts, and 90kts on climb-out.

4. If runway selection and wind direction are just right, I could also safely waive the extra delay for wake turbulance.  Is that helpful, and should I mention that to clearance delivery? Ground? Tower?

5. Any other tips are appreciated.  I've been in & out of EWR on a rainy night, so I'm looking forward to the experience at JFK.

Thanks,
Jim


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captray
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2009, 07:00:18 AM »

From a pilot's point of veiw, I would consider Farmingdale or another airport close by. A single engine, while completely legal, may really jam up the flow in and out of JFK. Everyone else is doing 150-170 kts and you will be lucky to do 100.

Of course, that's just what I would do.....
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cessna157
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2009, 01:32:51 PM »

Plus, depending on the time of day, you're going to pay well over $100 in fees.

I'd pick another airport
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jim_in_nh
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2009, 09:42:22 AM »

Thanks for the input from captray and cessna157.  It's always helpful to hear the two cents from experienced folks.

Regarding the cost, yes it's pricey, but only about $50 more than if I go to FRG, rent a car, fuel it, park it at JFK, deal with the LIE at rush hour, etc.

As for the flying, it has been my experience at major airports that ATC is always helpful, and they try to keep me off the primary arrival and departure routes as much as possible, in order to minimize the jam-up to which captray refered.  If it's IFR, I can and will fly the SID if that's what they want, but I give it 50/50 that I'll end up with something different.  If it's VFR, and they prefer I go that way, I was thinking of heading south to the shore line, then head west to the corridor up the Hudson, over the Tapanzee and on my way.  I heard a Bonanza do that the other day.

Either way, I'm trying to do my homework so as to make things go as smoothly as possible, so I'd still love to hear from a local ATCS with some tips.

Thanks again,
Jim
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Jason
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2009, 03:14:40 PM »

Thanks for the input from captray and cessna157.  It's always helpful to hear the two cents from experienced folks.

Regarding the cost, yes it's pricey, but only about $50 more than if I go to FRG, rent a car, fuel it, park it at JFK, deal with the LIE at rush hour, etc.

Free crew cars at Sheltair FRG if you park there. No fuel purchase required.
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keith
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2009, 01:42:56 PM »

I haven't tried this yet, but I have researched the fees side of things. Off-peak JFK is the cheapest airport of the big three. The landing fee is per 1000lbs gross weight, and is almost trivial for a single engine piston.  Port Authority will come and pick you up from the main terminals for free and shuttle you back to the GA area. You can't really beat it. 

As for the VFR vs IFR, I imagine that VFR would be easier as it would reduce the separation requirements.  Let the controller know what speeds you can do, and that you are flexible on the rwy assignment and you're probably giving yourself a fighting chance.

Good luck let us know if you go through with it!  VFR out makes most sense, you'll be out of the dep controller's hair that much sooner.
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jim_in_nh
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2009, 11:29:35 PM »

made the trip.  went pretty well all in all.  ifr both in and out, after discussion with fss and clnc delivery confirmed that there would be no difference.  lengthy departure delay - about an hour.  not something to do too often but neat experience, and if it makes sense logistically then it may be worth it.  but be ready for some very busy traffic.  as I expected, they broke me off the main departure route right off the bat.

thanks for all the thoughts and comments.  that's what forums like this are for.

thanks, jim
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felixk
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2009, 02:46:59 PM »

Tell us more about your flight in...what airplane did you fly in? where did you park? How was ATC? What instructions did you get?
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jim_in_nh
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2009, 02:10:48 PM »

My tale of JFK

The plane was my Piper Cherokee 180.  I filed IFR flight plans in and out.  Weather was severe clear.  They were landing 22L and 13L.  Coming in over DPK, they set me up for 22L.  While I would have expected a visual approach due to the nice weather, the ATIS (very robotic sounding) indicated the VOR-DME 22L was in use, and that’s what I got.  They vectored me onto final about 6 miles out.  The approach is not directly aligned with the runway, so you stay on the approach course until the end, then a little jog left and you’re on the ground.  Arrived in the early afternoon, before things were really busy.  Pretty straight forward but comms move along pretty quick, so be ready for that.  A 747 was arriving on 13L at the time, which was visually awesome, with the Manhattan skyline as a backdrop.  I exited 22L at H, talked to gnd, and held short of 22R.  Then left on A and followed that around to the General Aviation Terminal (GAT) for parking and fuel, which is run by the Port Authority.  The GAT is on the NW corner of the field, near 13R.  Parking for up to 8 hrs was $25, with a normal take-off fee of $25, plus a $100 surcharge because I left between 3 and 10PM.  Pricey, but saved rental car expenses, and got into the air just as fast as if I had gone to FRG, and a few miles closer to my destination.  Port Authority provides free transport to/from the main terminal area, but I gave the driver a tip for their trouble.

For departure, I discussed the VFR/IFR options with FSS, and filed an IFR flight plan, with “Will change to VFR flight following if easier for traffic flow” in the remarks section.  When I called for the clearance, delivery said it would be no faster either way, so I stuck with the IFR.  When I called ground ready for taxi, I was number 40 for 13R, not too surprising since I was leaving during the early evening rush.  I was told that normally they would depart flights headed in my direction (NW bound) from 13L, but there were too many planes on the ground to taxi all the way around the airport, so they had me use 13R, right next to the GAT.  Many flight crews of the airliners taxiing by waved to us.  A Lufthansa 747, and the Delta 737 we followed to the runway, stand out in particular.  The wait was about an hour when our turn came, and they had me join the line.  Until then, they kept track of my sequence, but had me wait at the GAT exit.  Once you join the line, be sure to keep some distance behind the jets to avoid jet blast problems.  On departure, the jets were given right turns, and I was given a left turn to keep me from gumming up the works.  Then over to departure, a few vectors, direct SAX, and I was on my way along my filed route.

ATC was great and treated me with the same respect everyone else got.  They do a phenomenal job there.  They were moving a lot of airplanes and made it look easy; true professionals.  Just be sure you are ready for quick and busy comm’s, and know the phraseology to keep it concise.  As preparation, I spent time listening to the various frequencies on LiveATC and studying the airport diagram, in order to get the feel of the place.  I knew what my taxi route was likely going to be even before I landed.  I knew that A turns into Q, and that the GAT was at QD, and I practiced some JFK approaches, and taxiing on the ground on a computer based simulator.  Ironically, I had NOT practiced the VOR-DME 22L, but had done one to a different airport a few days before.  Long story short, the homework paid-off, especially the ground taxiing practice.

Not sure I would have done it as a VFR only pilot, unless I was doing it at very off hours, which appear to be between midnight and 8AM.  And if the weather were really crummy, I might also think twice about it, even now, due to the fact that it could be even busier.  One thing that occurred to me after the fact is that, unlike most other airports you’ll go to, I was likely the only amateur in the JFK system at the time…every one else was being paid to be there, so I would recommend that you be honest with yourself, and feel that your own skills are at a professional level before doing something like this, even if you’re flying a Cherokee.
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felixk
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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2009, 04:36:15 PM »

Hey,

Thanks for the details! That's pretty interesting I've been flying out KFRG and KCDW for the past 6 years and I've never attempted a flight into the big 3 (JFK, EWR, LGA), although I hear a lot of GA traffic coming into LGA (they even have an FBO). I always wanted to try it though, but I never felt comfortable doing it.

One last question, do you happen to remember the exact times/dates of your flight into JFK. I'd love to hear the conversations with ATC from the LiveATC archives.

Thanks!
Felix
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Tomw
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2009, 03:38:21 PM »

I've flown into JFK, LGA, EWR many times in all types of aircraft.  Been to JFK in TriPacer, and my Cherokee. No Problem. 
The GAT is on the NW side of the airport.  So landing on 31L or 13R is useful.  Intersection departures are always good, if not the active, else wake turbulence is an issue.  Have a copy of the airport diagram.
In the end, the controllers are very helpful.  Departure delays are far less at JFK than FRG(all fbo's charge high ramp fees.) 
In the end, you will pay extra landing fee for JFK during prime times, but don't let the size, complexity of the airport scare you...in the end it's just an airport.
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