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Author Topic: Routing thru NY Class B from KFRG to Hudson SFRA  (Read 14346 times)
CH2Tdriver
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« on: August 02, 2010, 04:22:42 PM »

I am a pilot/CFI based at KFRG.  I would like feedback from some of our ATC'ers here.  I am looking for the best options for departing KFRG (Republic Farmingdale, NY) and proceeding westbound thru the NY Class B with the destination being the Hudson Corridor SFRA for the tour.

Ideally what I'd like to do is depart FRG and request 2000' to the VZ bridge and then the published Skyline route northbound.  Upon reaching Alpine tower I would ask for vectors to N07 (Lincoln Park NJ) for a stopover.  Would this be something to expect to be approved realistically?

I know of course about the option to transition KJFK Class D below 500' along the beach westbound, and then Hudson river northbound in the SFRA uncontrolled airspace.  This is an option, but I would prefer to stay with ATC at 2000'.  Seems a bit safer and for first time pax the low bumpy ride might not sit so well.


Thanks in advance.
Peter
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MikeNYC
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« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2010, 06:50:03 PM »

(bump)

Also based at KFRG, and haven't yet ventured into the Bravo. Have wanted to take the Skyline route, so perhaps this thread can get some more input?
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Jason
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2010, 08:43:40 PM »

I'm not a controller, but I've flown the route quite a bit.  It depends on the runway configuration being used. When JFK is landing the 4's, you'd probably have to duck down to 500' and fly the southshore westbound, then request a handoff to EWR TCA (127.85) which normally occurs upon reaching the tip of breezy point park.  From the Alpine tower to N07 shouldn't really be much of an issue as the Bravo starts at 3,000 in that area.

I have, on occasion, been given a Bravo clearance climbing out of the south shore exclusion (just south of JFK) eastbound direct FOK but it depends on runway configuration in use and any crossing traffic.  Usually westbound doesn't happen unless you descend below the Bravo.  This is just my personal experience. I'm sure things are also a lot different if you try to fly it at 3am when things are quiet and the mid shift controllers don't have any other traffic that conflicts with your request.

I normally duck down to 500' south shore westbound, request hudson northbound at 1,500 or 2,000 in the Bravo, and I normally get it.  Even when the Yankee stadium TFR was in effect, EWR was able to coordinate with TEB for a transition and I was cleared up to the hudson at 1,500 until crossing the GWB and then transitioned into the TEB delta.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 08:48:29 PM by Jason » Logged
n07cfi
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2010, 03:30:54 PM »

Might be worth a look opening up a helicopter chart.  One of my past students said that he uses a heli transit route and to him it appeared that ATC is happy to give it to him even though he's in an airplane.
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MikeNYC
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 03:44:03 PM »

That's what I've heard. I do have a copy of the Heli chart, and I was thinking about a south departure from KFRG, calling JFK on 125.25 and requesting South Shore-Skyline-Central Park-Throgs-Microwave back to KFRG.

I just wish the Garmin G1000 could display heli charts.
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MikeNYC
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 01:41:02 PM »

Well, I flew it today, and had a great time! Extreme clear conditions, and a little bumpy. Departed KFRG runway 32, left downwind to the south shore. From there, I contacted JFK Tower 125.25 and requested South Shore at 500, VZ climb to 2000, Hudson, Central Park, Throgs, checkout eastbound. I was told to proceed as requested, and got clearance to climb to 2000 and enter Class B airspace just after passing west of JFK. I was handed off to EWR tower, and went over the south tip of Governor's Island and on up the Hudson. After passing the Lincoln Tunnel, I was handed from EWR to LGA tower. LGA told me Unable to proceed to Throgs, so I remained on the Hudson and didn't cross Central Park. Just north of the GW Bridge, I asked for and got a course reversal to return to KFRG the same way I came. LGA handed me back to EWR, and EWR passed me back to JFK south of the VZ Bridge. I checked out near the Jones Beach monument and climbed to 1500'. FRG tower set me up following the inner shoreline for left base to 32. Total time 1.5h with runup and taxi, cruising around 100kts.

I had the Helicopter Chart with me which gave me a lot more confidence following the routes and being flexible if I was given a different routing. Also, from listening to LGA and JFK tower quite a bit I was familiar with the VFR callups for Class B routing, so I was a lot more comfortable with making my request. All in all, it was much easier than I thought it would be and really enjoyed it.

Jason, my experience pretty much mirrors yours. It was great flying the Hudson at 2,000 and staying above all of the local operations and out of the SFRA. Hopefully next time I can get Central Park and Throgs routing back so I can fly over the LGA cab.
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Jason
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2010, 05:21:43 PM »

Jason, my experience pretty much mirrors yours. It was great flying the Hudson at 2,000 and staying above all of the local operations and out of the SFRA. Hopefully next time I can get Central Park and Throgs routing back so I can fly over the LGA cab.

Great to hear...it was a perfect day for it.  If you use proper phraseology and don't mess around too much on the frequency, most of the controllers will approve your request if it's even remotely possible.  I like staying above the local traffic in the Bravo since it guarantees traffic separation though it's still extremely important to keep your head out of the cockpit to look for traffic.

The last two times I flew the hudson, I requested Skyline northbound at 2,000 and both times the controller had no clue what I was requesting so I've just kept with the old phrasing, "hudson northbound in the Bravo."

Best,
Jason
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 05:23:38 PM by Jason » Logged
cassidy1190
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 12:44:55 PM »

This thread really captured my interest.  I have been planning to tour the city along the Hudson river since I received my PPL in September.  I have not done it yet though, because I'm still not quite sure I am familiar enough with the procedures. As I learned from this thread it seems like if your smart about calling up ATC they'll pretty much work with you along the way.

Ive read so far some great information here about approaching from the east, but being that I fly out of Belmar/Farmingdale NJ BLM I will be coming up from the south. That being the case, should I call up NY Approach on 127.4 and try to get a clearance early on over sandy hook, rather than waiting until I'm right under the bravo to call up Newark TCA? All input is greatly appreciated.
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Jason
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 02:30:56 PM »

Ive read so far some great information here about approaching from the east, but being that I fly out of Belmar/Farmingdale NJ BLM I will be coming up from the south. That being the case, should I call up NY Approach on 127.4 and try to get a clearance early on over sandy hook, rather than waiting until I'm right under the bravo to call up Newark TCA? All input is greatly appreciated.

Coming from the south/southwest, try either 127.40 (CAMRN sector) or 128.55 (Yardley sector) depending on how far west you venture first.  If you're further west (ie. west of Old Bridge/3N6), try 128.55.  Perhaps an N90 controller can also chime in.

I usually try to make my initial call to approach early enough so it gives the controller plenty of time to coordinate with EWR or LGA TCA.  I prefer to make the initial call well outside the Bravo rather than underneath it where a lot of traffic exits the exclusion.

Best,
Jason
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cassidy1190
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2010, 03:06:03 PM »


I usually try to make my initial call to approach early enough so it gives the controller plenty of time to coordinate with EWR or LGA TCA.  I prefer to make the initial call well outside the Bravo rather than underneath it where a lot of traffic exits the exclusion.

Best,
Jason

That being the case, maybe I should just get fligh following from McGuire right off the bat and ask for a handoff.
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Jason
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2010, 04:53:13 PM »

That being the case, maybe I should just get fligh following from McGuire right off the bat and ask for a handoff.

Not a bad idea, actually.  Either that or try to call NY 5 or 10 miles south of the Bravo.  It can be done either way, I just prefer picking up flight following as soon as possible to enhance my situational awareness and receive traffic advisories workload permitting.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 04:55:15 PM by Jason » Logged
cassidy1190
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2010, 06:53:07 PM »

Yeah, I think that's the plan.  Now as far as requesting clearance, I suppose I should mention that I would like clearance through the bravo "up the Hudson" specifically (or skyline route, whichever is better understood)?  And as far as coming back home, where do you usually reverse your course? I would assume somewhere near the Tappan Zee where the river is nice and wide. Do you also need to request this from the controller? Thank you for all your suggestions, I'm still just a bit apprehensive when it comes to the more complex airspaces.
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Jason
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2010, 07:50:20 PM »

I would request "Hudson north in the Bravo" since in my recent experience, "skyline route" is not a term that is very well known on the frequency.

In terms of reversing course, advise LGA TCA of your intention to reverse over the TZ so they can coordinate with NY approach.  Best of luck flying the corridor and be sure to complete the SFRA online FAA training.  Don't hesitate to contact me with any questions.

Best,
Jason
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cassidy1190
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 10:48:01 PM »

Hey thanks for all your help Jason.  I just completed the online safety course, and am planning on taking the course on Class B in general also.  Good stuff, just wish they included a little more information about the class B portion of the SFRA.  If anyone else has flown this route recently please feel free to share your experiences as well.
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MikeNYC
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2010, 11:21:51 PM »

Just a quick note that the SFRA and the Class B are two distinct areas... there isn't a "class B portion of the SFRA". The SFRA lies underneath the Class B, and flying the SFRA (see and avoid) will be quite different from flying in the Bravo (positive control). It's great to take the online course on the SFRA to familiarize yourself with the area, but just be clear which you'll be flying in as you'll have different reporting points for the SFRA and routes for the Bravo.

I'm far from an expert on the area as I just flew it myself for the first time only recently, but just make sure you are aware the SFRA is outside the Class B airspace, so the "rules of the road" from the online safety course are different if you're above 1,300' in the B.
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