Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 20, 2014, 08:58:06 PM
Home Help Login Register      
News: NEW Follow LiveATC updates on Twitter and Facebook


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Aviation
| |-+  Pilot/Controller Forum (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  Separation in Class D airspace
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Separation in Class D airspace  (Read 16254 times)
Mike73
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« on: January 16, 2013, 03:42:25 PM »

In class D airspace, separation IFR/VFR is not provided by ATC. Pilots are responsible for the separation. Does it mean that Traffic information SHALL be granted by ATC ??
Logged
davolijj
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 548


MMAC ARSR OKC


« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2013, 06:58:59 PM »

Not really following you here.  What do you mean by 'traffic information SHALL be granted?'  The issuance of traffic advisories is an additional service all controllers provide on the basis of workload and controller judgement.
Logged

Regards
JD
Mike73
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 06:10:03 AM »

Hi JD,
In class D, separation is not provided by ATC (except IFR/IFR) so pilots are responsible for separation. If pilots are not aware about the traffic around (so, if ATC doesn’t give Traffic Information), how can pilots take the necessary separation from each other?
Ex: air collision between aircraft VFR crossing runway axis 3NM/1500ft and aircraft IFR flying ILS procedure on the same runway 3NM/1500ft.
So, what I would like to know is: in such a situation, who (ATC or pilots) will be responsible in case of accident?
Logged
StuSEL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 252


« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 05:08:00 PM »

I'm not understanding your example. Traffic information will not always be provided if workload doesn't allow for it. The Class D tower controller's only requirement is to sequence aircraft to land and depart and to provide runway separation. There is no 3NM or 1500 ft. separation requirement in Class D airspace. Pilots must see and avoid each other with or without traffic information, just like they do in any other airspace.
Logged

CFI
Mike73
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 06:37:16 PM »

Hi StuSEL
Sorry about my very bad explanation…
My example was: If an air collision happens between an aircraft (flying VFR, crossing a CTR class D, position: 3NM from rwy threshold in the runway axis and at an altitude of 1500ft) and another aircraft (flying IFR (so pilots don't look out) following the glide on that runway, so could be at 3NM from rwy threshold at an altitude of 1500ft), who will be taken as responsible?
No Traffic Information is given by Tower and Approach.
To you, pilots must avoid each other even without traffic information so responsibility of ATC is not engaged.
To me, pilot who’s flying an IFR procedure looks and stays concentrated on his instruments and just keeps a look out if ATC gives him information about conflicting traffic. How can a pilot avoid other aircraft if he’s not looking out and if he doesn’t receive information about potential conflicting traffic? I think that responsibility of the controller could be involved.
Logged
mybad67
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 11:44:19 PM »

HHmmmmmm.... So one guy is flying in IMC and one guy is flying VMC, and they collide, who fault is it? in that case i would say the VFR guy flying in the same cloud as the IFR guy. grin

 OK, so maybe they are both in flying VFR, just one of them is doing a practice ILS approach. Even when on a IFR flight plan, when you are in VMC you are responsible for your own collision avoidance.

Logged
mybad67
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 11:51:49 PM »

And if you are practicing IFR approaches in VFR conditions, dont forget your safety pilot  wink
Logged
keith
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 277


WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2013, 01:03:30 AM »

Quote
To me, pilot who’s flying an IFR procedure looks and stays concentrated on his instruments and just keeps a look out if ATC gives him information about conflicting traffic. How can a pilot avoid other aircraft if he’s not looking out and if he doesn’t receive information about potential conflicting traffic? I think that responsibility of the controller could be involved.

In the US, ATC does not provide separation between VFR and IFR aircraft in class D airspace. IFR pilots are supposed to know this. In visual conditions, they MUST see and avoid VFR traffic, that is completely the pilot's responsibility (theoretically).

Practically speaking, the tower will go to great lengths to keep the planes away from each other or at least inform each aircraft about the other's presence, if known.

The same is true in the terminal/enroute environment. I've been flying VFR with flight following and been given an absolute altitude to maintain (higher or lower) to remain clear of an IFR arrival, or even another VFR aircraft. The controller doesn't HAVE to do it, but the paperwork and court hearings would be a major inconvenience when those planes hit as the controller says nothing. I think should should say, "suggest you maintain" instead of "maintain" to remind everyone that ATC isn't providing separation, but I've never heard it done.  In NY/NJ here on the east coast, they just tell you to climb or descend and assume you prefer life over death.
Logged

KS Flight Log - pics, videos, ATC/intercom audio and in depth flight reviews
PilotEdge - add ATC to your simulation experience
davolijj
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 548


MMAC ARSR OKC


« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2013, 07:25:21 PM »

The same is true in the terminal/enroute environment. I've been flying VFR with flight following and been given an absolute altitude to maintain (higher or lower) to remain clear of an IFR arrival, or even another VFR aircraft. The controller doesn't HAVE to do it, but the paperwork and court hearings would be a major inconvenience when those planes hit as the controller says nothing. I think should should say, "suggest you maintain" instead of "maintain" to remind everyone that ATC isn't providing separation, but I've never heard it done.  In NY/NJ here on the east coast, they just tell you to climb or descend and assume you prefer life over death.

Actually in many cases the controller DOES have to ensure separation between your aircraft and other IFR/VFR aircraft, specifically if you're operating in TRSA or class B terminal airspace.

7110.65U
7-7-3. SEPARATION


Separate VFR aircraft from VFR/IFR aircraft by any one of the following:

a. Visual separation, as specified in para 7-2-1, Visual Separation, para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and para 7-6-7, Sequencing.

NOTE-
Issue wake turbulence cautionary advisories in accordance with para 2-1-20, Wake Turbulence Cautionary Advisories.

b. 500 feet vertical separation.

c. Target resolution.
Logged

Regards
JD
porterjet
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22


« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 12:57:28 PM »

As a pilot who flies IFR most of the time looking outside is still my best bet for collision avoidance. By definition an aircraft in IMC can't collide with an aircraft in VMC since you can't have IMC and VMC in the same place at the same time, maybe you meant IFR and VFR?
Logged
davolijj
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 548


MMAC ARSR OKC


« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2013, 10:21:38 AM »

As a pilot who flies IFR most of the time looking outside is still my best bet for collision avoidance. By definition an aircraft in IMC can't collide with an aircraft in VMC since you can't have IMC and VMC in the same place at the same time, maybe you meant IFR and VFR?

In theory.  I once had to issue a traffic alert to an IFR aircraft in IMC for a VFR aircraft not receiving radar service.
Logged

Regards
JD
keith
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 277


WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2013, 09:01:51 PM »

Quote
Actually in many cases the controller DOES have to ensure separation between your aircraft and other IFR/VFR aircraft, specifically if you're operating in TRSA or class B terminal airspace.

Yes, but I was referring to Class E airspace for my examples (that's why I pointed them out as being 'unnecessary' instructions from ATC, but still very helpful).

I am aware that everyone is separated in Class B, and IFR is separated from VFR in Class C.
Logged

KS Flight Log - pics, videos, ATC/intercom audio and in depth flight reviews
PilotEdge - add ATC to your simulation experience
danielatcvny
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 01:33:00 AM »

Working at one of the busiest class D airspaces in the world, I can tell you that while our only separation requirement is IFR/IFR and of course runway separation, we all go to great lengths to ensure collision avoidance. We have helicopter routes that come very close to the ILS (about 1/2 mile) and when the field is VMC, we tell the aircraft about one another, to ensure they each know what the other is doing.

Even though there is no requirement, all controllers are responsible for preventing collisions as our primary objective.
Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!