Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 30, 2014, 02:01:21 AM
Home Help Login Register      
News: NEW Follow LiveATC updates on Twitter and Facebook


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Aviation
| |-+  Pilot/Controller Forum (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  standard phraseology
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Go Down Print
Author Topic: standard phraseology  (Read 16347 times)
kumara6
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 01:23:21 PM »

Compared to others on this form, i am a low timer...only been around aviation for about 2 years. So part of my question could be from some ignorance, for which I apologize.

But it seems like for my life in aviation, the push for standard phraseology has been very aggressive topic as of the last year. Is this accurate or have I just become aware of it in the last year? If the latter, how long has this campaign been going on?
Logged
iskyfly
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 177


« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 06:21:50 PM »


I don't think that makes a difference to the topic at hand.

It establishes real world credibility as I wondered the same thing myself...   So yes, if you plan to voice an opinion on ATC or piloting an airplane telling the readership your experiences allows the reader to pay attention to what you say or discard it from no real world experiences.

  For the record, I have over 1000 hours PIC time of which probably 3/4 of that I have documented on my You Tube channel.  So StuSEL's question on your real world experiences is a very reasonable question 
No, its willy wagging.

I (and others) have posted numerous references that stress the importance of using standard phraseology.


Just the other day an expressjet pilot, while on final transmitted the following;
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/481979-air-controller-during-emergency-landing-i-know-thats-bs.html
Quote
"Emergency, smoke in the cockpit, roll trucks, please."
A controller in the tower responds, asking, "Who was that?"
 
The voice responded, "5912."
 
The controller responds, after about 10 seconds, asking, "United 12, what's your position?"
 
After no response, more time elapses and the controller asks someone, "Did you hear that? I know that's BS. I know it is."

The resulting discussion focused on the pilots use of non standard phraseology;

Quote
Emergency, smoke in the cockpit, roll trucks, please

is pretty far away from standard phraseology.


Quote
Completely agree with captain prop. It seems that the lack of professionalism and radio discipline caused the problem, if it had been a routine pan call then the message would have been conveyed first time.

 
Quote
Again, quite clearly - most of it due to the usual cowbay phraseology.
As for the comments regarding the increased time required to process said phraseology to do it properly, that's PRECISELY why it should be trained and used correctly in everyday circumstances - so that little or no thought is required.
 
Of course, then the cowboys wouldn't be able to sound so cool!


Quote
In my experience, when you get to the Comms part of Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, it should be executed as professionally as the first 2. It's not an optional extra - but a big part of airmanship, especially in congested airspace. Standard phraseology is the only way we can ensure things are done properly


Advocating non standard practices (especially to those new in aviation) is dangerous.

Logged
beechsundowner
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 203


WWW
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 07:36:55 PM »

No, its willy wagging.

Call it what you want.  If you won't share your real world experiences then no point in having any dialogue with you and hopefully the readership will see right through your fluff and follow right along.

You lost any credibility with me since you won't answer direct questions with regards to your real world experiences in the ATC system.  I think my credibility with regards of flying in the ATC system stands on it's own.  Don't believe me, search the forums on my posts.

Cya later alligator.
Logged

RV1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 104


« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 01:43:15 AM »

"You lost any credibility with me since you won't answer direct questions with regards to your real world experiences in the ATC system.  I think my credibility with regards of flying in the ATC system stands on it's own.  Don't believe me, search the forums on my posts."

How about my credibility, I've controlled for over 24 years, and had a pilot's license for 25 years. I have been on here before about poor phraseology. I have trained many controllers, and one area that I am a stickler (among many others) is phraseology. We have rules to follow. We are required to. We will be given extra training if our phraseology isnt where it should be. It used to be that phraseology was a factor in whether or not we were 'fully successful'. Listening to poor phraseology makes most of us cringe. It is a lot easier to say the stuff correctly, than it is to fuddle as you go. When you are busy, you dont want to have to think about what you are going to say, and the correct way to say it. If you've learned the phraseology as per the .65, it frees up more of your time to make a plan or two. You may not understand how vital that is, but when there are numerous targets headed towards your airport, every second to free up brain cells is important. There are areas that we 'mush' phraseology, like 'traffic 12 o'clock, 3 miles, out of 3 for 7. However, on one tape talk, where your supe reviews a random tape pulled and out of 49 transmissions, the ONLY error you made was that one: 'out of 3 for 7', you see the importance. 

Additionally, when, after an accident, a lawyer has you on the witness stand and he starts to microscopically take apart your phraseology, you will have wanted to be 'by the book'.

I know that pilots aren't held to the same standards we are, but as pilots, we ALL need to understand the importance of good communication, and how it is preferrable to stick to the correct way to say things.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 01:48:14 AM by RV1 » Logged

Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
beechsundowner
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 203


WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 08:33:55 AM »

How about my credibility, I've controlled for over 24 years, and had a pilot's license for 25 years.

Thank you for not being afraid to posting your real world experiences.  Much easier to have dialogue with a person not afraid to share what they been through and also easier to tailor my responses accordingly.  Please note, when I say "you" it's is not you personally...

. If you've learned the phraseology as per the .65, it frees up more of your time to make a plan or two.

Not a standard reference.  .65 of what?  PCG, AIM, FARS?  Just bringing this out as a point as an example how assumption can cause miscommunications.  Hopefully you have read page one of this thread where I spell out my experiences as I don't need to rehash it.  Only thing to add to it just to be clear is I am NOT a CFI.

Stay with me please on the following

I know that pilots aren't held to the same standards we are, but as pilots, we ALL need to understand the importance of good communication, and how it is preferrable to stick to the correct way to say things.

Absolutely correct on the above with good communication.  I call it the three WWWs as described previously.   Clear and CONCISE speech on the radio.  Again stay with me.

Jackson approach Southwest 1108 climbing through 1.4 for 6.0
ATC - Southwest, radar contact, climb and maintain 6000.

Jackson approach Sundowner 1943 Lima climbing through one thousand four hundred feet for 6000 feet
ATC Sundowner 1943 Lima, radar contact, climb and maintain 6000.

Both initial callups contain incorrect phraseology yet ATC response was exactly the same.  Both callups contain the three WWW's.   Both calls represent that both pilot and ATC are on the same page since ATC gave climb instructions . Is safety being compromised because of the incorrect phraseology?  If your experience is like mine from the pilot side, the answer is NO.  Both planes and ATC are reading out of the same play book.  Now again to save you looking back on page one of this thread, I don't use decimals myself but I am not against it AS LONG AS BOTH ATC and PILOT are reading out of the same play book.  If there is any misunderstanding by either party, the safety net is requery the pilot / ATC and get clarification.

As with your instructions on a reference to me being not clear.  I posted a video where I screwed the pooch.  It wasn't phraseology, it was a complete misunderstanding.  It is misunderstandings that make the skies dangerous.  If something is being said such as non standard phraseology and not being understood, that's where two planes have a high likely hood of sharing the same airspace unless big sky theory prevails.  Not sure if you have seen it, but the thread is http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/vor-alpha-into-kmbo-approach-with-plate-overlays-and-atc-coms-video/msg40105/#msg40105

Lastly...

Being honest with yourself and me.  In your training as pilot, just how much formal training did you get in ATC phraseology when compared to your current ATC job?  If your pilot training in ATC COMS was like mine (I had part 91 training), it was how to key up, talk the three WWW's and unkey the mic to listen.  I am sure you understand there is a vast difference in training and why your pilots you handle in your job may not be as proficient in phraseology.

Again, I appreciate your honesty and candor on your experiences.  That only makes the forums more valuable when one can put the books down and actually talk to each other.  There are street smarts and there are book smarts.  I will take street smarts over book smarts because when the rubber meets the road, all the books in the world will not land that plane.   If it means talking plain English to ATC to get me through the flight, I will do so smiley
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 08:42:23 AM by beechsundowner » Logged

martyj19
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 84


« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 08:41:28 AM »

When a controller says .65 they mean the national standard for how traffic is controlled

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAA_Order_7110.65

the relevant parts of which we see in the Pilot Controller glossary and scattered through the AIM as procedures.

I guess they aren't required to say seven one one zero point six five in referring to it  smiley

Another area where readbacks take the shortcut all the time is "tower on thirty three two"
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 08:43:17 AM by martyj19 » Logged
RV1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 104


« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2012, 01:58:34 AM »

Sundowner, my reason to enter this topic was because there are some parts of ISKYFLY's arguments that I side with, and there are some that I don't. I just wanted to provide some backing to some parts of his arguments with my background. Let me explain:
 Within the last year, at my last facility we had to watch a training video, (the FAA actually has a production crew that  makes a number of videos in order to make their point!) about the dangers of non-standard phraseology, like using 'descend to 220'. There were others, but that one comes to mind. Most of them had all of us cringing because we saw what was about to happen as the pilot misunderstood what the controller said, and either climbed or descended into traffic, or the call was ambiguous as to whether he meant speed, altitude, miles or heading. As a comical note, when I worked in a center, we had one controller who asked if he could tell the pilot to 'descend, fly and indicate 250'!        IMHO, the FAA doesn't make videos, send out refreshers, come up with Computer Based Instruction programs for us about phraseology, unless it is very important.

For the most part, shortcuts in phraseology like 1.8 for 9 doesn't get people killed, but on our end, when there is a mishap, even if the planes never touch, ALL of our transmissions will be scrutinized, written out, and not only shown to us, but if we're lucky, become next months facility training lesson on what not to do. That can get humbling! (As of yet, I have not had that experience...) Even when we have a deal; a separation error, we will get to read what we said. Next to that will be the section in the .65 (7110.65) that refers to what we should have said. I have trained supes who sucked at phraseology, yet they will be giving me MY tape talk and bringing to my attention how I didn't say 'November or aircraft type after the third transmission to the same aircraft'! Even during an interview I had for a supes job, one of the questions was 'you are in the tracon and you hear a controller using poor phraseology, what would you do?'
  So, does poor phraseology make for a poor pilot? Not always. Does a poor pilot have poor phraseology? Not always. Are there areas where we can all improve? Absolutely. Does the busyness of the sector mandate the use of non-standard phraseology? Usually the opposite is true! The busier I am, the more transmissions I will be making, the less I want to repeat myself. Therefore, I will try to be as exact, concise and spot-on with my phraseology as I can be. I would appreciate it if the pilots did the same. I can't tell you how many times, in the middle of a massive workload, I would get one pilot that wanted me to know what color airplane he was flying and what he had for breakfast. (yes, some times I need to know the color!).
  I would also have to say that, for most U.S. controllers, if you ask us about phraseology, it's importance, and whether or not we need to be exact, then we would have to ask what was wrong with 'Taxi Into Position and Hold'?!
We now have to say Line up and Wait, yet when we pass traffic to the next inbound, we say that there is a plane HOLDING POSITION on the runway...

   I don't know if I've cleared anything up, or made it muddier.  
Is our pay based on whether or not we use correct phraseology? It used to be when we got rated. Not so much anymore. We still get a performance rating twice a year, and we can get told to read up on the phraseology and use the right stuff. We also get random tapes pulled to see if our facility, as a whole, is using the correct phraseology.
Can we receive remedial training for poor phraseology? Yes, and many have.
Are controllers allowed to use shortcuts when their traffic load is high as compared to when it isn't? There is NO difference in the rules concerning when to use proper phraseology, at all, especially not based on workload. THERE IS, however the ability to use non-standard phraseology should the situation require it.
Do we know what you mean when you say 1.8 for 3? Yes.
Do you know what we mean when we say 'traffic out of 3.3 for 8'? Probably, but we still shouldn't be saying it!
Do controllers like donuts? Probably as much as police officers.

 grin
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 02:00:32 AM by RV1 » Logged

Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
JNanu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2012, 07:39:17 AM »


Are you a pilot or a controller?
I don't think that makes a difference to the topic at hand. So far all referenced documentation from the FAA, NATCA, AOPA and air traffic controllers that has been supplied in this thread and the previous thread clearly state the phraseology that should and should not be used for numerous reasons including safety. I have yet to see any supporting credible evidence to the contrary.

Of course it makes a difference. What you're doing is analogous to an individual suggesting that it's unsafe and wrong to drive 61 in a 60 without having ever driven a car. Simply citing the law doesn't mean in practice the law must always apply. I'm neither a pilot nor a controller, but based on my observations - i.e. this is common practice and no regulatory body has done anything about it, I can conclude that it at worst doesn't reduce safety and at best actually improves efficient and safe operation of aircraft in certain conditions. Unless you want to suggest that the FAA or NTSB are unaware of this practice you can't deny the fact that they made the choice not to address it. Given what's at stake in aviation in general. Given the strict regulations in place in many other areas of aviation. Given how quickly regulations are changed in response to an accident. The fact that this practice has been and continues to be common without any interjection from any regulatory body is evidence in its favour.
Logged
beechsundowner
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 203


WWW
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2012, 09:27:30 AM »

 I would also have to say that, for most U.S. controllers, if you ask us about phraseology, it's importance, and whether or not we need to be exact, then we would have to ask what was wrong with 'Taxi Into Position and Hold'?!
We now have to say Line up and Wait, yet when we pass traffic to the next inbound, we say that there is a plane HOLDING POSITION on the runway...

I **believe** the history behind this change was to get the USA to match the rest of the world's (ICAO?) phraseology when it was changed from position and hold to line up and wait.

As far as standards and phraseology, I keep emphasizing one needs to consider the human aspect of flying as you have students pilots, you have ATPs and you have me that falls in the middle, I agree a standard  (phraseology) is important, however the most important thing to me is that the team of pilots and ATC controllers read out of the same page.   

If you have a pilot with mic fright because he is worried about not meeting phraseology standards or fear of getting chewed out by ATC for not being responsive enough or quick enough, you have a communication problem.  You will be waiting longer for the pilot to stutter out the right words and everybody is frustrated.   

I would think from a non ATC point of view (pilot) if I can communicate something quicker to you without worrying about did I miss a standard that you would work with that then focus on the fact that I messed up and didn't use standards.  You would be amazed at how something simple like one instrument giving a caution indication (not necessarily a reportable issue to ATC) can rock my world.  My thoughts go rampant thinking, ok, what else is going on?  Here I am flying a plane at 110 knots, worrying about an indicator light, in IMC, and I have to worry about conforming to phraseology?  I don't think so.  Aviate, Navigate Communicate.  This may be an extreme example but the point I am bringing out again is we are human and while it would be wonderful that everybody act and react the same, it's just not going to happen.   

IMHO your average GA pilot doesn't fly enough to stay proficient in phraseology much less fly in the IFR system more complicated than GPS direct.  He (or she) is already behind the curve just staying upright in IMC.  Add in mic fright, "Sundowner 43L, amendment to your clearance, ready to copy" Houston, we all have a problem.   My take, if it takes non standard phraseology to read out of the same page, so be it.  Clear concise communications is the key to success

Based on the above, you as an ATC controller have my highest respect.  I only deal with one controller at a given time so it's pretty easy to establish a rapport. You on the other hand, I cannot imagine what you go through to "switch gears" from a student pilot that has troubles holding the PTT and speaking clearly, to somebody who has deviated from a clearance, to somebody like me that will pop up with "Jackson Approach, request please".  Doing all of this while maintaining professionalism is nothing short of amazing to me.

Off topic to this thread.....   Being a retired federal government employee myself, I feel your pain on certain things you are encountering and describing in your post that non government employees would never understand.  Brought back nightmares smiley

Pass me a donut please, I'm hungry this morning  grin
Logged

iskyfly
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 177


« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2012, 12:54:53 PM »

No, its willy wagging.

Call it what you want.
Thanks, but I don't need your permission.

Quote
If you won't share your real world experiences then no point in having any dialogue with you and hopefully the readership will see right through your fluff and follow right along.
Opinion.
Please show me, with credible citations (ie- FAA, FAR, AIM), where the use of non standard phraseology is condoned.

Quote
You lost any credibility with me since you won't answer direct questions with regards to your real world experiences in the ATC system.  I think my credibility with regards of flying in the ATC system stands on it's own.  Don't believe me, search the forums on my posts.
Cya later alligator.

Willy wagging and name calling. Real professional!

Relax and calm down. This is a discussion forum, used for, among other things, to share information. You disagree with me on the topic of non standard phraseology then you disagree with the FAA. Take up your argument with them if you wish to have things changed. That you have used non standard phraseology in the past and may do so frequently, does not make what I have cited wrong.
Logged
iskyfly
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 177


« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2012, 01:01:13 PM »



Thank you for not being afraid to posting your real world experiences.  Much easier to have dialogue with a person not afraid to share what they been through and also easier to tailor my responses accordingly.
You made it difficult for yourself.
Logged
tyketto
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2012, 02:20:06 PM »

No, its willy wagging.

Call it what you want.
Thanks, but I don't need your permission.

Quote
If you won't share your real world experiences then no point in having any dialogue with you and hopefully the readership will see right through your fluff and follow right along.
Opinion.
Please show me, with credible citations (ie- FAA, FAR, AIM), where the use of non standard phraseology is condoned.

Quote
You lost any credibility with me since you won't answer direct questions with regards to your real world experiences in the ATC system.  I think my credibility with regards of flying in the ATC system stands on it's own.  Don't believe me, search the forums on my posts.
Cya later alligator.

Willy wagging and name calling. Real professional!

Relax and calm down. This is a discussion forum, used for, among other things, to share information. You disagree with me on the topic of non standard phraseology then you disagree with the FAA. Take up your argument with them if you wish to have things changed. That you have used non standard phraseology in the past and may do so frequently, does not make what I have cited wrong.


Please cite where pilots are REQUIRED to use absolute phraseology, like ATC is required to, per the 7110.65. As previously mentioned, the AIM is a guide; a reference for pilots to use, but they are not REQUIRED to use that phraseology each and every time.

ATC is required to use the same phraseology, or as much as they can outside what normally happens around  their airport, per the .65. But pilots are not under such a restriction. Key words in the AIM? 'should', not 'must' or 'shall'. the .65? 'shall' and 'must', not 'should'. Absolutes, not conditionals. There is your disconnect.

You've had a couple of pilots and controllers here correct you, yet you still put up your argument that the pilot is wrong. If you think they are wrong, you could practice what you preach and send in reports of their violations to the FAA to have the pilots scrutinized. If you are right, they will pull the tapes and the CFR and investigate; if you aren't, they will throw your complaint away; I am more inclined to believe the latter will happen, along with about 20 minutes of laughing.

BL.

P.S. The only two things the pilots are required to read back are runway assignments and hold short instructions. And even then, exact phraseology isn't required by the pilot. As long as they read back the hold short instruction or the runway assignment, they are compliant.
Logged
iskyfly
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 177


« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2012, 09:25:50 AM »


You've had a couple of pilots and controllers here correct you, yet you still put up your argument that the pilot is wrong.
Well now you are just making things up. I have seen pilots disagree with what I have cited, but again, that doesn't make it wrong. I also have seen a controller agree on the importance of using standard phraseology;
Quote
"but as pilots, we ALL need to understand the importance of good communication, and how it is preferrable to stick to the correct way to say things."
Logged
tyketto
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2012, 02:11:32 PM »


You've had a couple of pilots and controllers here correct you, yet you still put up your argument that the pilot is wrong.
Well now you are just making things up. I have seen pilots disagree with what I have cited, but again, that doesn't make it wrong. I also have seen a controller agree on the importance of using standard phraseology;
Quote
"but as pilots, we ALL need to understand the importance of good communication, and how it is preferrable to stick to the correct way to say things."


Preferrable, not required. Big difference. With that, you still have not answered my question.

Please cite where pilots are REQUIRED to use absolute phraseology, like ATC is required to, per the 7110.65. As previously mentioned, the AIM is a guide; a reference for pilots to use, but they are not REQUIRED to use that phraseology each and every time.

ATC is required to use the same phraseology, or as much as they can outside what normally happens around  their airport, per the .65. But pilots are not under such a restriction. Key words in the AIM? 'should', not 'must' or 'shall'. The .65? 'shall' and 'must', not 'should'. Absolutes, not conditionals.

So again, please cite where pilots are REQUIRED to use standard phraseology, like ATC is with the 7110.65.

BL.
Logged
iskyfly
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 177


« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2012, 04:33:29 PM »



Preferrable, not required. Big difference. With that, you still have not answered my question.

Please cite where pilots are REQUIRED to use absolute phraseology,
1. You are mistakenly attributing something to me that I haven't said.
   a. Preferable has one r, not two.
2. That is not a question. And if it was, then you are answering my question with a question, which really isn't an answer at all.
 
So I repeat;

Quote
Please show me, with credible citations (ie- FAA, FAR, AIM), where the use of non standard phraseology is condoned.

Until then, lets summarize;

-The use of standard phraseology is a best practice.
-The FAA, (AIM), FlightSafety, AOPA and even NASA state that non standard phraseology should not be used.
-The above references have also documented incidents of where the use of non standard phraseology have caused problems.
-Some of the above references were written by pilots.
-Air traffic controllers themselves have emphasised the importance of using standard phraseology.
-The claim that using non standard phraseology during busy periods saves time is false.
-The excuse that it is frequently used despite the above does not make it right.

Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!