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Author Topic: Transponders  (Read 31461 times)
Twocky61
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« on: January 22, 2012, 09:44:17 AM »

During 9-11 the terrorists were able to disengage the transponders in the planes they hijacked -
-What reason could there ever be to dis-engage transponders whilst in flight?
-Why are transponders not permanantly on as are black boxes?
Without transponder signal all the atc controller sees on screen is blip & maybe flight number NOT altitude & speed & other flight parameters or in the case of a declared emergency sqwark code 7700 -
I have emailed this question to both FAA & CAA & await reply though I am not holding my breath

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Nick Attwell
eltors0
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 11:27:59 AM »

It is used in the process of one of the secondary ways to radar identify an aircraft.  Also, when ATC deems that the secondary is not necessary upon the aircraft getting within 15 nm from destination airport, they may instruct to turn off the transponder.  Also during certain phenomena such as ring around, ATC may instruct the pilot to turn off the transponder to reduce ring around or if there is a high population of actual targets (aircraft) to reduce scope clutter.
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Twocky61
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2012, 09:53:07 AM »

Thanks for that Eltors0 xx
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Nick Attwell
kumara6
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2012, 03:16:44 PM »

When I do formation flights, ATC asks us to shut off all transponders, except for the lead a/c. If we left them on, their screens would keep yelling at them for having two airplanes so close by.
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Twocky61
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 04:13:21 AM »

Thanks Kumara6
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Nick Attwell
ogogog
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 09:21:13 AM »

It is used in the process of one of the secondary ways to radar identify an aircraft.  Also, when ATC deems that the secondary is not necessary upon the aircraft getting within 15 nm from destination airport, they may instruct to turn off the transponder.  Also during certain phenomena such as ring around, ATC may instruct the pilot to turn off the transponder to reduce ring around or if there is a high population of actual targets (aircraft) to reduce scope clutter.

100% WRONG, in 30 years ive never ask to have a TXP turned off because i didnt think i needed the secondary target.do you even know what happens to an ARTS/STARS data block when the TXP is turned off ?...IT DROPS OFF AFTER 3 SWEEPS WITH WITH OUT A TXP SIGINAL
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eltors0
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 06:24:32 PM »

It is used in the process of one of the secondary ways to radar identify an aircraft.  Also, when ATC deems that the secondary is not necessary upon the aircraft getting within 15 nm from destination airport, they may instruct to turn off the transponder.  Also during certain phenomena such as ring around, ATC may instruct the pilot to turn off the transponder to reduce ring around or if there is a high population of actual targets (aircraft) to reduce scope clutter.

100% WRONG, in 30 years ive never ask to have a TXP turned off because i didnt think i needed the secondary target.do you even know what happens to an ARTS/STARS data block when the TXP is turned off ?...IT DROPS OFF AFTER 3 SWEEPS WITH WITH OUT A TXP SIGINAL

5−2−12. STANDBY OR LOW SENSITIVITY
OPERATION
You may instruct an aircraft operating on an assigned
code to change transponder to “standby” or “low
sensitivity” position:
NOTE−
National standards no longer require improved transponder
to be equipped with the low sensitivity feature.
Therefore, aircraft with late model transponders will be
unable to respond to a request to “squawk low.”
a. When approximately 15 miles from its
destination and you no longer desire operation of the
transponder.

b. When necessary to reduce clutter in a
multi-target area, or to reduce “ring-around” or other
phenomena, provided you instruct the aircraft to
return to “normal sensitivity” position as soon as
possible thereafter.
PHRASEOLOGY−
SQUAWK STANDBY,
or
SQUAWK LOW/NORMAL

It is not a requirement AT ALL, but for whatever reason it is in the book. Have I ever used it? Nope. I can't figure out why anybody would use it, but it is an answer for OP.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 06:34:29 PM by eltors0 » Logged
Twocky61
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2012, 04:27:37 AM »

Thanks Ogogog
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Nick Attwell
Twocky61
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2012, 04:28:23 AM »

Thanks again Eltors0
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Nick Attwell
StuSEL
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2012, 09:15:25 AM »

Transponders are normally turned off once the aircraft clears the runway after landing. It doesn't turn back on until the aircraft takes the runway on its next departure. Leaving the transponder on when taxiing is done at airports that have a ground radar system called ASDE-X, but otherwise that practice can cause issues for the approach/departure controller, especially if a radar (not used for ground radar) is located on or close to the airport.

Another practical use for turning off a transponder is if the Mode C altitude encoding component starts sending ATC bad altitude information. If the Mode C readout is less or greater than 300 feet from the pilot's assigned altitude, ATC will usually instruct aircraft to "stop altitude squawk." They then switch to using only pilot-reported altitudes, which can also be typed into the data block that corresponds to the aircraft.

It's important to remember that modern radar has two components: a primary radar and a secondary radar. Secondary radar is responsible for receiving and deciphering the data sent by a transponder, allowing the radar system to include the altitude information next to the aircraft's target, as well as receive the transponder code and include some flight plan data next to the altitude information. When a transponder is turned off or not equipped on an aircraft (some GA aircraft do not have transponders), ATC can still pick up the aircraft on primary radar. While a primary radar target does not have the altitude or flight plan information next to it, there are still methods of positively identifying a primary target. The hijacked aircraft on 9/11 were still visible on primary radar until they dipped below radar coverage, which in most places is at and above 3,000-5,000 feet.
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Twocky61
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2012, 01:41:57 PM »

Thanks for that most comprehensive answer StuSEL
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Nick Attwell
ogogog
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2012, 03:30:38 PM »

How many of you have even seen ring around. ive seen it once in 30 years and it was in my USAF days at RAF Bentwaters using an old moble RAPCON. most of the FAA radars are now ASR 9/11s which are not prone to ring around.in the 5 years i was at C90 with all the traffic around  KORD ive never seen it once. still cant think of one reason under normal operations to have a aircraft stop sqwk near an airport.
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Dngnkeeper
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2012, 04:02:10 PM »

... still cant think of one reason under normal operations to have a aircraft stop sqwk near an airport.

EAA Airventure

Sun & Fun
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eltors0
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2012, 06:53:17 PM »

How many of you have even seen ring around. ive seen it once in 30 years and it was in my USAF days at RAF Bentwaters using an old moble RAPCON. most of the FAA radars are now ASR 9/11s which are not prone to ring around.in the 5 years i was at C90 with all the traffic around  KORD ive never seen it once. still cant think of one reason under normal operations to have a aircraft stop sqwk near an airport.

At my facility, ring around is somewhat common but it doesn't last more than a few sweeps.  It might be due to the fact it is an ASR 8.
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ogogog
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2012, 07:22:40 PM »

How many of you have even seen ring around. ive seen it once in 30 years and it was in my USAF days at RAF Bentwaters using an old moble RAPCON. most of the FAA radars are now ASR 9/11s which are not prone to ring around.in the 5 years i was at C90 with all the traffic around  KORD ive never seen it once. still cant think of one reason under normal operations to have a aircraft stop sqwk near an airport.

At my facility, ring around is somewhat common but it doesn't last more than a few sweeps.  It might be due to the fact it is an ASR 8.

yep that one would do it i belive the 8s are still analog , dose it happen with air targets or when someone has the txp on while on the ground.are you using ARTS or STARS where you work?
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ogogog
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2012, 07:25:46 PM »

... still cant think of one reason under normal operations to have a aircraft stop sqwk near an airport.

EAA Airventure

Sun & Fun

well done, but OSH isnt a normal operation.
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eltors0
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2012, 07:42:53 PM »

How many of you have even seen ring around. ive seen it once in 30 years and it was in my USAF days at RAF Bentwaters using an old moble RAPCON. most of the FAA radars are now ASR 9/11s which are not prone to ring around.in the 5 years i was at C90 with all the traffic around  KORD ive never seen it once. still cant think of one reason under normal operations to have a aircraft stop sqwk near an airport.

At my facility, ring around is somewhat common but it doesn't last more than a few sweeps.  It might be due to the fact it is an ASR 8.

yep that one would do it i belive the 8s are still analog , dose it happen with air targets or when someone has the txp on while on the ground.are you using ARTS or STARS where you work?

It only happens with air targets.  We don't have ARTS or STARS.  We use OD-58's for the RATCF and up in the tower we have a BRANDS.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 07:45:58 PM by eltors0 » Logged
davolijj
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2012, 11:23:14 PM »

...allowing the radar system to include the altitude information next to the aircraft's target, as well as receive the transponder code and include some flight plan data next to the altitude information. When a transponder is turned off or not equipped on an aircraft (some GA aircraft do not have transponders), ATC can still pick up the aircraft on primary radar. While a primary radar target does not have the altitude or flight plan information next to it...

The transponder does not provide any flight plan data, at all.  The only thing it broadcasts to the radar system is a 4-digit beacon code, and an altitude.  Radar automation systems do the rest.

Terminal or Enroute automation systems manage the flight plan data via the NAS HOST computer system, and parts of that data are presented on the radar system for the controller to access.  It is true, the radar system cannot display altitude information for a primary target, or one for non-mode C equipped aircraft either.  But the datablock will still have exactly the same flight plan information displayed as a transponder-equipped aircraft would because flight plan data is independent of an aircraft's transponder.

And by the way, a primary-only, or non-mode C track in the enroute environment can still display a controller-entered altitude in the datablock despite the equipment limitations.
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Regards
JD
sykocus
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2012, 02:46:20 AM »

yep that one would do it i belive the 8s are still analog , dose it happen with air targets or when someone has the txp on while on the ground.are you using ARTS or STARS where you work?

ASR-8 can be digitized. When I left the AF they were installing STARS at my base and were going to digitize the existing ASR-8 pending funding for the the new radar. Now that I'm in the FAA our facility uses an ARSR-4 and an ASR-8 digitized and fed into MEARTS.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 02:50:59 AM by sykocus » Logged

Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
Twocky61
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2012, 06:08:37 AM »

Thanks Davoljj & Sykocus
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Nick Attwell
ogogog
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2012, 09:02:20 AM »



It only happens with air targets.  We don't have ARTS or STARS.  We use OD-58's for the RATCF and up in the tower we have a BRANDS.
[/quote]

ARMY/DOD ?
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eltors0
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2012, 01:26:38 PM »

USMC
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Twocky61
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2012, 03:38:04 PM »

Thanks Dngnkeeper
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Nick Attwell
kumara6
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2012, 01:58:28 PM »

I was recently listening to ISP Tower feed, and they were telling 2 a/c that were doing Touch n Gos in the pattern to Squawk Standby.
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StuSEL
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2012, 05:36:52 PM »

...allowing the radar system to include the altitude information next to the aircraft's target, as well as receive the transponder code and include some flight plan data next to the altitude information. When a transponder is turned off or not equipped on an aircraft (some GA aircraft do not have transponders), ATC can still pick up the aircraft on primary radar. While a primary radar target does not have the altitude or flight plan information next to it...
The transponder does not provide any flight plan data, at all.  The only thing it broadcasts to the radar system is a 4-digit beacon code, and an altitude.  Radar automation systems do the rest.
Yes sir, what I should have said was "receive the transponder code and thus include some flight plan data..." Thanks for the other information, too!
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CFII
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