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Author Topic: RNAV+RNP=HITS?  (Read 9535 times)
SJ30
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« on: March 26, 2009, 05:24:14 PM »

As I spool-up on my initial flight training study, I came across the FAA's HITS concept shown here: 


(Note: FAA "Screencast" will take a while to load - click play arrow to view.)


I have a few questions if you don't mind:

1) Will HITS replace all airspace classifications [A, B, C, D, E and G]?

I've seen and read where some airports have had their approaches reconfigured [for lack of a better term] specifically for RNAV and RNP approaches with what was said to be a lot less Pilot communication with ATC.  Don't know if this is true of not, but if zero comms with ATC seems to make no sense to me as only ATC will know whether or not any particular runway is clear to land/takeoff on or from.  So, it would seem to me that ATC will always have to communicate at least that much to the pilot.

2) Will HITS replace all ILS approachs?

If the so-called "Highway in the sky" runs from approach altitudes down to the runway threshold by providing vertical, horizontal and lateral guidance as well as a built-in (highway) glide-slope, then what need is there anymore for ILS approach procedures.  Don't the two contradict each other, or will they be used together.

3) Will HITS replace Jet Routes - the "J" system?

Since the RNAV/RNP HITS concept is one of horizontal and vertical clearance from within the geometric center of the HITS path in the sky and this is said to be the "containment corridor" within which the aircraft is assigned from takeoff to landing, then what use will there be for the higher altitude "J" route system.

4) Will HITS replace all the point-to-point navaids VOR, NDB, Waypoint, etc.?

The HITS "containment" concept seems to encapsulate everything necessary to fly from destination to arrival airport without the need reference ground based installations along the way.  Since the assignment of a corridor by definition would mean flying inside the parameters of that "box in the sky," then why do point-to-point navaids matter anymore.

I know that HITS has been talked about for a while, and now I know that at its core will be the older [legacy] RNAV and RNP technologies to drive the concept of Performance Based Navigation.  What I'd like to know is whether or not I should postpone my Private through Jet Type flight training, until this new system of air navigation is fully installed, given all the airnav training that a new private and instrument pilot has to go through in order to get licensed and rated?  Or, should I just go ahead with the training and worry about the air traffic control changes right along with everyone else?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 05:27:47 PM by SJ30 » Logged

In a world gone completely insane, one thing sill remains... ... ... Flight!  You just, gotta love it!
captray
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2009, 07:11:32 PM »

I'm not sure just what or if the HITS will replace. I do know that if you don't start training and building flight time you won't be flying for a living during this lifetime!
So...like the rest of us who learned to fly before the A,B,C ect. airspace, and before METARS and TAF's just suck it up and get on with it.
Changes will come but the FAA moves slowly.

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jmcmanna
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 07:58:25 PM »

This is a video explaining what RNAV/RNP procedures do.  It doesn't change any airspace. 

It won't necessarily replace ILS approaches, but it is geared toward more precise vertical and lateral navigation.  There are GPS systems that provide vertical navigation information, and WAAS approaches are popping up with both LNAV and VNAV capabilities.  Some day that might replace ILS approaches, but it won't be any time soon.

Victor Airways and jet routes are ground-based airways.  GPS already allows airplane to go point-to-point, but in busy airspace, the airway systems keeps airplanes organized.  These RNAV/RNP procedures do the same thing, just to higher standards.  GPS routes are becoming more common at high altitudes (Q routes), but most airplanes today fly point-to-point, jet routes, or a combination of both.

All of the stuff in this video is already happening.  CLT, LAS, ATL, etc... all have RNAV/RNP procedures.  Airplanes already fly point-to-point across the country.  More and more RNAV procedures are going to happen, but it will never be something that ends.  Procedures will constantly be added, changed, updated, etc . . . so delaying learning how to fly until all of this change is completed will ensure that you'll never fly an airplane.
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bluetooth
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2009, 10:24:42 AM »

video?
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SJ30
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2009, 10:48:57 PM »

video?

Click on the image in the original post.  I've wrapped the hyperlink inside the image.  It takes a while on my machine for the resulting video at the FAA to fully load.  Hope that helps.
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SJ30
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2009, 10:52:08 PM »

I'm not sure just what or if the HITS will replace. I do know that if you don't start training and building flight time you won't be flying for a living during this lifetime!
So...like the rest of us who learned to fly before the A,B,C ect. airspace, and before METARS and TAF's just suck it up and get on with it.
Changes will come but the FAA moves slowly.

Thanks, Captray.

The aircraft that I'll be flying will be my own.  Though I used to dream of flying for a commercial airline many years ago, the vast majority of turbine flying that I'll be doing in the near future, will be in my own aircraft and typically for business day trips and some over-night or multi-day business meetings.

But, your point about getting on with the training is well taken.
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In a world gone completely insane, one thing sill remains... ... ... Flight!  You just, gotta love it!
SJ30
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2009, 10:57:00 PM »

...so delaying learning how to fly until all of this change is completed will ensure that you'll never fly an airplane.

Indeed - thanks, Jmcmanna.
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lancer84
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2009, 03:27:41 AM »

RNP is still a relatively new form of nav. It will eventually replace vors,ndbs,etc. We already see these facilities being done away with in parts over the United States. Now the problem with RNP is that there's countries around the world that cannot afford this new technology quite yet so while we wait for them to catch up, the ILS will still be around for a long time. I personally think that sooner than we know, VORs in the US will be absolete. There are still so many airports and airlines out there that dont have the money to equip their planes with the RNP tech. So fear not, for the ILS will still be the #1 precision approach for a whiles to go.
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SJ30
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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2009, 07:15:14 PM »

RNP is still a relatively new form of nav. It will eventually replace vors,ndbs,etc. We already see these facilities being done away with in parts over the United States. Now the problem with RNP is that there's countries around the world that cannot afford this new technology quite yet so while we wait for them to catch up, the ILS will still be around for a long time. I personally think that sooner than we know, VORs in the US will be absolete. There are still so many airports and airlines out there that dont have the money to equip their planes with the RNP tech. So fear not, for the ILS will still be the #1 precision approach for a whiles to go.

Thanks, Lancer84.

After reading a couple of posts, it clicked in my mind that this is [to a large degree] a nice to have concept, but in the end somebody would have to pay for it.  Given the global economic problems at play right now and the fact that we already have a good nav infrastructure in place, the full conversion to the higher end technology infrastructure (GPS based) leading to a full blown HITS coast-to-coast might take some time as we do have other [higher] financial priorities at this time.

Thanks for the help.
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In a world gone completely insane, one thing sill remains... ... ... Flight!  You just, gotta love it!
w0x0f
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 11:43:12 AM »

RNP is still a relatively new form of nav. It will eventually replace vors,ndbs,etc. We already see these facilities being done away with in parts over the United States. Now the problem with RNP is that there's countries around the world that cannot afford this new technology quite yet so while we wait for them to catch up, the ILS will still be around for a long time. I personally think that sooner than we know, VORs in the US will be absolete. There are still so many airports and airlines out there that dont have the money to equip their planes with the RNP tech. So fear not, for the ILS will still be the #1 precision approach for a whiles to go.

Thanks, Lancer84.

After reading a couple of posts, it clicked in my mind that this is [to a large degree] a nice to have concept, but in the end somebody would have to pay for it.  Given the global economic problems at play right now and the fact that we already have a good nav infrastructure in place, the full conversion to the higher end technology infrastructure (GPS based) leading to a full blown HITS coast-to-coast might take some time as we do have other [higher] financial priorities at this time.

Thanks for the help.

This is where the NextGen scam comes in.  We'll just print some more money and pay Marion Blakey and her con artist friends associated with AIA.  She set up the multi-billion dollar contract with ITT while FAA administrator and then went right to work for them.  Now she's looking for the payoff. 

 ARLINGTON, Va., March 28 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --

The following is a statement by AIA President and CEO Marion Blakey:


Randy Babbitt is an excellent choice to head the Federal Aviation Administration. He has a passion for the industry and brings to the FAA years of aviation experience as a pilot, labor negotiator and safety expert. There are many critical issues waiting at the helm for a new administrator, including expediting NextGen -- the transformation of our air transportation system. In 1995 Congress established a five-year term for the FAA Administrator to provide continuity necessary for an agency that is focused on safety and complicated operational responsibilities. By moving quickly on Mr. Babbitt's confirmation, the Senate will provide the much-needed stability for our nation's air transportation system.


Founded in 1919, the Aerospace Industries Association represents the nation's leading manufacturers and suppliers of civil, military, and business aircraft, helicopters, unmanned aerial systems, space systems, aircraft engines, materiel, and related components, equipment services, and information technology.


www.aia-aerospace.org


SOURCE Aerospace Industries Association

http://in.sys-con.com/node/896474

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PIT
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 02:16:33 PM »

Would nextgen put any controllers out of work?
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davolijj
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 05:06:25 PM »

Would nextgen put any controllers out of work?

There is no question the ultimate goal of Nextgen is to remove the human elemant from the ATC system.  How's that for irony?  The only people holding this broken system together are the controllers - and the FAA wants to basically eliminate them.  The end-goal of Nextgen is computers on the ground communicating with and managing computers in the air.  Controllers won't go away, but their job functions will change to more of a monitor/airspace manager.

Here is a video produced by the FAA touting Nextgen as the solution to all the delays we've seen over the past few years as well as calling it a necessary upgrade for our system to handle future capacity.
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/reauthorization/nextGenVideos/

Trust me, controllers are not worried about their jobs being phased out.  The FAA has a long track record of project management which has been consistantly overbudget and behind schedule.  As long as the FAA is managing the Nextgen project, there is no danger of it being rolled out during the timeline they've set forth, or possibly not rolled out at all (free-flight and sector-suites come to mind).  The larger problem controllers have with the project is that the concept is fundamentally flawed.  The people developing Nextgen have a real opportunity to create an infrastructure much better than what we have today.  But it appears as though they are squandering that opportunity on something that will have minimal impact on congestion and delays.  If I could just repeat some very informative links from some very smart people...read these and you'll understand why.

http://gettheflick.blogspot.com/2009/04/nextgen-vs-nobody.html
http://jurassicbark.blogspot.com/2008/03/what-is-nextgen.html
http://www.faafollies.com/?p=1179
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 05:47:14 PM by davolijj » Logged

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JD
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2009, 06:15:38 PM »

It was a cool video though.  rolleyes
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