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 on: August 19, 2014, 03:07:16 PM 
Started by HappyBird - Last post by StuSEL
When within Class B, Class C, or the Class C outer area, the type of service being provided by a radar controller is different than the flight following you receive outside of those classes of airspace. Inside the Class B, Class C, or Class C outer area, the controller is required to provide you a certain level of separation from other traffic dependent upon your weight classification. In doing so, the controller may legally assign you altitudes that do not comply with NEODD-SWEVEN/91.159.

Outside of a Class B, Class C, or the Class C outer area, controllers provide traffic advisories on a workload-permitting basis. They also have an order to prevent collisions between aircraft, so it would not be unheard of for a controller to "assign" or suggest a heading or altitude change to prevent a collision, if he or she believes one is imminent.

In no case while talking to ATC is a pilot permitted to violate the regulations of14 CFR. In the absence of an ATC-issued altitude assignment, pilots must comply with 91.159.

 on: August 19, 2014, 02:18:49 PM 
Started by RonR - Last post by trichorse
And of course, there is a lesson in this.  Just heard on ground control at JFK a Port Authority Vehicle request entry onto a runway to inspect the area where a high-powered run-up had taken place.  So lessons to be learned and are learned.

 on: August 18, 2014, 11:25:38 PM 
Started by janlam01 - Last post by janlam01
On August 13, Air Canada Jazz 8953 from Fredericton to Toronto diverted to Ottawa because the pilot reported that there was smoke.

Media report: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/air-canada-jazz-flight-ac8953-makes-emergency-landing-in-ottawa-1.2735068?cmp=rss

Flightaware: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JZA8953/history/20140813/0830Z/CYFC/CYYZ

This incident caused a ground stop because the aircraft landed on the only runway that was available for use, which was Runways 07/25 (runways 14/32 is out of commission due to repaving activity). Passengers from that aircraft were evacuated onto the runway after landing. A city bus was called to transport the evacuated passengers from the runway into the Airport Terminal. All departures that would have been scheduled to leave Ottawa between 6AM and 7AM were not able to leave until after 7AM. One arrival (Air Canada flight 138 from Vancouver) had to divert to another airport.

The edited audio attached lasts about 20 minutes long. Note that the first 6:35 (6 minutes and 35 seconds) of the audio are conversations between Jazz 8953 and ATC until it landed safely in Ottawa. Beyond 6:35 are conversations that occurred after the plane landed and evacuated.

From 9:20Z to 11:02Z (5:20AM to 7:02AM eastern daylight time, local time).

9:20Z [5:20 ET]: Air Canada Jazz 8953 (JZA8953) inquires Montreal Centre (frequency 132.35) about ride report.

9:22Z [5:22 ET]: Montreal Centre asks JZA8953 to switch to the Controller's other frequency 128.775.

9:49Z [5:49 ET]: Montreal Centre handoff JZA8953 to Toronto Centre frequency 124.675

<Gaps in conversation after handoff to Toronto Centre>

9:54Z [5:54 ET]: JZA8953 was back with Montreal Centre indicating that there was smoke in the cabin and is planning to land in Ottawa. Montreal Centre asked JZA8953 whether an emergency was declared with Toronto Centre and later asked the pilot for fuel and souls.

9:57Z [5:57 ET]: Montreal Centre handoff JZA8953 to Ottawa Arrivals frequency 135.15

9:57Z [5:57 ET]: JZA8953 checks in with Ottawa Arrivals and the Controller immediately gives approach clearance for Runway 07. The pilot was requesting for fire trucks and advises that he intends to stay on the runway and evacuating the plane.

9:58Z [5:58 ET]: (Conversation in progress) Ottawa Ground speaking with one of the "Red" vehicles relaying the relevant information regarding the emergency from JZA8953.

9:58Z [5:58 ET]: Ottawa Arrivals advises JZA8953 that emergency crews are on standby, and later gave wind and altimeter information to the pilot.

9:59Z [5:59 ET]: "Red 1" + 3 advised that they've crossed Runway 25. Ottawa Ground authorized the trucks to cross Runway 32 if need to.

10:00Z [6:00 ET]: Red 8 advised his standby position.

10:01Z [6:01 ET]: Red 1 asks Ottawa Ground what the pilot's intention is after landing.

10:01Z [6:01 ET]: (Conversation in progress) Ottawa Arrival essentially tells JZA8953 that they are too high for the approach.

10:03Z [6:03 ET]: (Conversation in progress) Ottawa Ground unable to give information to Red 1 because they (most likely the Controller for Ottawa Arrivals) don't have time to answer any questions from Tower. Red 1 advises his intent after the plane lands.

10:03Z [6:03 ET]: Ottawa Arrivals gives a wind check for JZA8953.

10:04Z [6:04 ET]: Ottawa Arrivals tells JZA8953 to descend as they are 4.5 mile final. Ottawa Arrival gives landing clearance and NOT TO switch to Ottawa Tower.

10:06Z [6:06 ET]: Air Canada 138 (ACA138) inbound to Ottawa checks in with Montreal Centre. Montreal Centre gives ATIS and what runway to land on.

10:06Z [6:06 ET]: Ottawa Ground tells the Red vehicles to proceed.

10:07Z [6:07 ET]: JZA8953 advises Ottawa Arrivals that they are evacuating the plane.

10:07Z [6:07 ET]: Ottawa Ground advises the Red vehicles that the plane is being evacuated.

10:08Z [6:08 ET]: Montreal Centre advises ACA138 that Runways 07/25 is closed.

10:08Z [6:08 ET]: Ottawa Ground advises all aircraft waiting to depart Ottawa that there's an emergency and that the effected aircraft is evacuating onto the runway.

10:11Z [6:11 ET]: Montreal Centre gives ACA138 holding instruction.

10:13Z [6:13 ET]: Porter 241 asks Ottawa Ground/Ottawa Clearance about departure delays.

10:16Z [6:16 ET]: Security 207 informing that he is escorting the paramedics and is requesting access to Runway 25.

10:18Z [6:18 ET]: (Conversation in progress) Montreal Centre gives ACA138 a new "expect further clearance time in the hold. ACA138 advised that they might need to go to their alternate.

10:19Z [6:19 ET]: Air Canada Van request permission from Ottawa to go onto the runway
to provide assistance.

10:21Z [6:21 ET]: (Conversation in progress) Montreal Centre advised ACA138 that they are unlikely be able to land in Ottawa before 10:40Z.

10:23Z [6:23 ET]: WestJet 357 receives clearance from Clearance Delivery and then inquires about the delay.

10:25Z [6:25 ET]: Air Canada 479 advises Ottawa Ground that they are shutting their engines off.

10:25Z [6:25 ET]: Air Canada Van requests to return to the Apron. And Red 5 request to go onto Runway 25.

10:29Z [6:29 ET]: Air Canada Jazz 7730 asks Ottawa Ground/Clearance how long they'll be able to depart.

10:30Z [6:30 ET]: ACA138 advises Montreal Centre that they've instructed them to divert to Montreal.

10:31Z [6:31 ET]: Birdman advises Ottawa Ground that he is escorting the bus of evacuated passengers to Gate 19.

10:32Z [6:32 ET]: Montreal Centre cancels holding clearance for ACA138 and heads to Montreal.

10:34Z [6:34 ET]: Montreal Centre provides ACA138 clearance to Montreal.

10:35Z [6:35 ET]: Air Canada Jazz 8638 asks Ottawa Ground when they'll be able to depart and what the incident was.

10:36Z [6:36 ET]: Montreal Centre handoff ACA138 to the next sector.

10:37Z [6:37 ET]: Ottawa Ground advises all aircraft awaiting to depart that the emergency aircraft is about to be towed.

10:41Z [6:41 ET]: Endeaver Air 3916 (operating for Delta Airlines) asks Ottawa Ground/Clearance Delivery about the emergency.

10:43Z [6:43 ET]: Birdman advises Ottawa Ground that he has dropped off the bus and the passengers.

11:00Z [7:00 ET]: Ottawa Ground asks the Duty Manager (Staff 21) when they can open the runway.

11:01Z [7:01 ET]: Red 1 advises Ottawa Ground that they are finished with the runway. And once the Birdman does an inspection, they can use it.

11:02Z [7:02 ET]: Birdman advises Ottawa Ground that the inspection is complete and the runway is available for use.

 on: August 18, 2014, 10:53:30 PM 
Started by RonR - Last post by trichorse
Ugh...lucky this happened *before* a plane had to make an emergency stop.  Still...

One person on the forum where the images were posted said it looked like there was no mortar between the bricks themselves or between the bricks and the ground...not good for airports.  But, interesting fact, the LDS temple in Salt Lake City, Utah was built without the use of mortar.  The blocks fit so tightly together that no mortar was needed.  So, bricks that have a super tight fit wouldn't need mortar to be immovable.  I wouldn't bet an airplane on it, though.

 on: August 18, 2014, 09:44:47 PM 
Started by RonR - Last post by RonR
Just noticed that my two CCC feeds went down...from what I can tell, it looks like the little Raspberry Pi might have crashed. It might take a few days to get taken care as this feed is at at another location.


 on: August 18, 2014, 01:26:55 PM 
Started by HappyBird - Last post by martyj19
Do you mean things like "maintain VFR at or below 2,400 until advised" (e.g. KSNA), or hard altitudes like "maintain VFR at 2000" ?

One example: I was at 4500 transiting KMHT Class C and given "descend and maintain 4000" and much later "descend and maintain 2500 contact Nashua Tower".

 on: August 18, 2014, 12:43:33 PM 
Started by Neon_WA - Last post by trichorse
Dr Richard Kimble is conducting the investigation.  wink
I didn't think he was a professional NTSB investigator. Are you sure he isn't just lending a hand?  grin

Wrong country, wrong agency.  Britian is AAIB.  But still...bad pun...funny, but bad rolleyes (there's no exhapserated bemused smiley)

 on: August 18, 2014, 11:49:42 AM 
Started by Neon_WA - Last post by swa4678
Dr Richard Kimble is conducting the investigation.  wink
I didn't think he was a professional NTSB investigator. Are you sure he isn't just lending a hand?  grin

 on: August 18, 2014, 11:44:52 AM 
Started by HappyBird - Last post by swa4678
I agree with marty's conclusion; the .65 rarely leaves anything to chance or "implicit" understanding. It's very verbose when it comes to carefully crafting phraseology for controllers. For example, there's a (considerable) difference between some action being "approved" versus you being "cleared" to do it.

Thus, without explicit clearance to deviate from 14 CFR 91.159, the east/west plus 500 rule for cruising applies.

I have been assigned non VFR altitudes while in B/C airspace so it does happen.
Do you mean things like "maintain VFR at or below 2,400 until advised" (e.g. KSNA), or hard altitudes like "maintain VFR at 2000" ?

Either way, circling back to my point above, there are provisions in the .65 for advising a pilot to return to the VFR cruising altitude reg above (7-8-5. ALTITUDE ASSIGNMENTS):



b. Aircraft assigned altitudes which are contrary to 14 CFR Section 91.159 must be advised to resume altitudes appropriate for the direction of flight when the altitude is no longer needed for separation, when leaving the outer area, or when terminating Class C service.


(The same is restated in 7-9-7(c) for Class B airspace, too.)

 on: August 18, 2014, 11:03:38 AM 
Started by HappyBird - Last post by martyj19
The text "shall maintain" and "unless otherwise authorized by ATC" are very clear and would lead to the conclusion that your friend is not correct.

To get a definitive answer I think you would need to have the FAA issue a ruling or maybe an experienced aviation attorney who has dealt with that specific issue.

I have been assigned non VFR altitudes while in B/C airspace so it does happen.  I have also heard controllers ask other aircraft to get on the correct altitude for direction of flight.

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